Mastodawn

Bob Thomson 1d ago

My train journey home starts with another accessibility rant (sorry, I've got an hour on a train and I didn't bring a book). Time to talk about something few think of as an accessibility aid

Benches

Most people take for granted that they can stand for half an hour or an hour to wait for a train. But for a surprisingly high number of people. Standing for even a few minutes can be agony. These people might not look like they need accessibility aids. But not being able to sit can be a problem
1/n

Quixoticgeek 1d ago

As part of the ongoing enshittification of the built environment, benches have been disappearing. This is because people moan that the benches get used, by homeless people who use them to lay down on. Or youths who hang out on them. The former is often countered by seat designs that stop a person laying down. It's called hostile architecture. People put effort into making bother people uncomfortable. Rather than solving homelessness. Which is something that's really easy to solve.
2/n

Quixoticgeek 1d ago

How? Give people homes. I know, it's radical isn't it.

Don't want youths hanging around. Give them a viable 3rd place. But that would require effort.

Much easier to remove benches. Or replace them with leaning planks. Which somehow make for a position even more uncomfortable than standing.

The station I just got on at has some benches. But they are positioned poorly. Either where there's no shelter from the wind/rain. Or towar the rear of the train. When I need to be at the front.
3/n

Quixoticgeek 1d ago

The worst one for this is Schiphol. Which last time I was there had benches at the end of the platform. But beyond the stopping point for the train. So when your train arrives you have to get up and hurry back down the platform to the front door to get on. All stations should have properly sheltered waiting facilities, with comfortable seats, protected from the sun, the wind, and the rain, which somehow today we have all three at the same time...

It's basic accessibility. It's just polite.
4/4

Charlie Stross 1d ago

@quixoticgeek I thought the whole idea at Schiphol was that the station is just there to ferry passengers to/from the airport, so it's very much an afterthought?

Quixoticgeek 1d ago

@cstross yep. The station is a triumph of bad design. It's almost like the brief was "design a station that says 'we hate passengers ' without explicitly saying it..."

@quixoticgeek @cstross that's the motto of most airports.

D. G. Marshall 20h ago

@mjr @quixoticgeek @cstross

It can hardly be a coincidence that no language on Earth has ever produced the expression "As pretty as an airport."

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@cstross @quixoticgeek It is, and as such I think it does a somewhat reasonable job of it given the constraints. It's as close to the airport as it could possibly be, it's protected from the elements and can be accessed without going outside as well.
Could it be larger? Not sure, honestly, although I think I've heard talks about adding a 4th platform. It's not very large for the amount of traffic it sees, which may explain the lack of benches as well.

Jo - pièce de résistance 1d ago

@quixoticgeek I agree. I’ve always thought they should roof the shelters with solar panels to provide cooling in summer, heat in winter, and generate energy for other things…heck, sell the energy and use it to build RGI public housing.

usmu 🍋🏳️‍🌈🤟1d ago

@quixoticgeek Amen, 10/10, no notes.

Jo - pièce de résistance 1d ago

@quixoticgeek
Also, whoever thought metal was a good idea for benches was an idiot. They are either too hot or too cold to sit on most of the time. Wood is great and reparable more easily than plastic.

Quixoticgeek 1d ago

@JoBlakely in NSs defence, the new design of benches are wood. There just aren't enough of them.

@quixoticgeek having CCTV everywhere doesn't help either, windbreaks removed because someone could be standing behind them, out of view

that's a design criteria and problem of Manchester tram stops

JB (he/him)1d ago

@quixoticgeek
Radical bench accessibility at Salesforce Park in San Francisco

PalmAndNeedle 1d ago

@jbm3 @quixoticgeek too short to lie down on, aggressively curved which makes them uncomfortable to sit on after about twenty minutes. Defensive architecture in disguise

@PalmAndNeedle @jbm3 @quixoticgeek the designer only has one friend and it has never occurred to them it's because they keep designing this sort of evil object

NilaJones 12h ago

@PalmAndNeedle @jbm3 @quixoticgeek

Yes, this is a perfect example of hostile architecture disguised as accessibility

Too short to lie on, too uncomfortable to sit on for long

Too small to sit on with a friend, unless you have your arms around each other

Too far apart to have a comfortable conversation if you are sitting on adjacent benches

A ridiculous number of benches all grouped together, presumably meeting some design spec that said they had to have that many scattered along the path. Put them all together, and then the rest of the path doesn't have to have any!

The only good thing about them, which I feel sure was done out of ignorance rather than intent, is that the spacing between and the lack of armrests means it would be comfortable for a person in a wheelchair to sit next to a person on a bench

Martin Gleadow 23h ago

@jbm3 @quixoticgeek "Salesforce Park" - that's corporate America summed up right there

James Trickle uP 19h ago

@jbm3 @quixoticgeek dark sky hostile lighting, of course.

Saule, anar en Mousses 10h ago

@jbm3 @quixoticgeek not comfortable and that's the point. The back is tilted too far.
Big enough for two ? No. But small enough to prevent people to sleep on it, sure. Hostile architecture masquerading as inclusivity. Yuck, not in my name.

Yimby Earth 1d ago

@quixoticgeek
Top tier rant.

Kevin Davy 18h ago

@quixoticgeek
I can't even stand for ten minutes. So, yes, definitely needed.

@quixoticgeek And then there is this: When I stand at our train station in the cold and the rain, the tiny glass shelter with the broken pane not large enough for all the people waiting and the next train is late again as usual or does not come at all, I look at the beautiful old station building next to it, now home to a family. Sold like all the others sometime in the last 30 years to cut costs. We had these things once. The large stations halls of the 19th century were full of benches once.

Michael ᚋᚔᚉᚆᚓᚐᚂ 1d ago

@quixoticgeek @cstross I was going to say something similar: the best way to prevent homeless people from sleeping on benches is not anti-social encumbrances on the bench but to give them homes.

Quixoticgeek 1d ago

@baoigheallain @cstross exactly. Housing should be a human right. We also should have a UBI.

Robert Pluim 🇪🇺1d ago

@quixoticgeek @baoigheallain @cstross
"Solving homelessness is impossible"
"But during Covid we housed all the homeless"
"Yes we did, but solving homelessness is impossible"

Dave Smeg 11h ago

@rpluim @quixoticgeek @baoigheallain @cstross
Forcing the homeless away by not alloing them anywhere to sleep, local councils can deny they have a homelessness problem, so don't have to spend money on it.
They can instead, divert that money into their back pockets.

@quixoticgeek I think there is also another reason: if there are benches, people will sit down and wait. If there are no benches, people are more likely to wander into one of the shops/cafés/outlets and spend money

Quixoticgeek 1d ago

@alstonvicar except in a lot of stations there aren't even those...

Stephen Cox Author 1d ago

the aging, people with small children, and the disabled must suffer in case a homeless person might lie down.

@quixoticgeek totally agree with you. I live in İstanbul and last time i was in the airport (SAW) I saw that they removed most of the benches which is forcing you to sit in one of the cafes for which of course you need to buy something. So annoying. Although technically it's not a public place i think (not owned by the state).

Jules she/her 1d ago

@quixoticgeek there was a good post on here somewhere about how hostile architecture is the opposite of the kerb cut effect. Just like kerb cuts for wheelchairs also help people with bikes, prams, suitcases, in the way accessibility measures help people beyond those who they're initially aimed at, hostile architecture targeted at unhoused people makes life harder for everyone beyond its designated targets.

Jules she/her 1d ago

@quixoticgeek (yes I am still pissed off about my cake)

https://social.coop/@afewbugs/115910584401842999

Alex@rtnVFRmedia Suffolk UK 23h ago

@afewbugs @quixoticgeek they started with this stuff in UK (or at least London and SE England) even before there was a large amount of homeless folk around when I was a teen (thats /over 30 years ago/)

@vfrmedia @afewbugs @quixoticgeek ah, the UK, where Norfolk CoCo is still installing new areas of ankle-breaker paving near hospitals in futile attempts to make people walk on the pavement not the obvious desire line

Robotistry 4h ago

@afewbugs @quixoticgeek I had to take the bus in Hillingdon after knee surgery, and I'd rather they just admit they don't actually want anyone sitting down and remove the "bench-like architecture" entirely. That at least would be honest.

NatalyaD 23h ago

@afewbugs @quixoticgeek

I have a relative who has a house they can't manage (and no appropriate help to manage it). They often sleep rough or hang around various places and honestly hostile architecture doesn't stop my relative, they've developed a preference to sit on the floor/ground... So a big up yours really.

So a lot like bike blocking gates that the "young men on quadbikes" can easily carry their things over, they block disabled and legit users AND don't stop the non-desired users.

Magnus Ahltorp 22h ago

@afewbugs @quixoticgeek And even kerb cuts are semi-hostile, since they work on the principle that cars are first-class citizens, while pedestrians and cyclists are second-class citizens.

mirabilos 1d ago

@quixoticgeek yeah, those diagonal lean-against things are just as bad for knees

zimpenfish 1d ago

@quixoticgeek As someone with a knee (currently) made of cactus spikes and custard, 100% agree that standing can be a massive pain in the, well, knee even for just 5 minutes.

MylesRyden 1d ago

Absolutely! I have arthritic knees. I can ride a bike for hours, but standing for more than a few minutes is agony. But being an otherwise healthy male, there is an unstated assumption that I should be the one to stand, allowing others to sit when seating is limited, which it almost always is.

@quixoticgeek 🙋 and applies to mobility issues with walking too. If you have mobility issues, you might be able to walk to somewhere a bit further away if there are benches to rest on en route.

Michelle Hughes 20h ago

The metrobus stations in Mexico City have benches, but if you sit at one, everyone acts like you're not in line anymore, and you will never get on the bus because there is never not a line. When I was still adjusting to the altitude here, standing made me feel like I was gonna pass out, but I had to do it to keep my place in line!

Frank Bennett 🇯🇵18h ago

@quixoticgeek I flew to the UK from Japan just past the peak of the pandemic. I wanted to stay clear of crowds during the long layovers in Qatar, and knowing how airports are often built to make walking/shopping easier than chilling, I packed a small plastic stool in the carry-on. It worked a treat, I was able to find an out-of-the-way nook and doze off.

Tarren (They/Them)15h ago

@pathfinder @quixoticgeek Yep, totally agree, as someone who fits into that demographic myself--it's gotta be something *SERIOUSLY* important to me if I'm gonna stand 2-30 minutes.

Steve Roy 15h ago

@quixoticgeek Yes! I was at a museum recently and was dismayed by the lack of benches everywhere. The very few that were there were already taken, usually by elderly people. I have MS and that day it was difficult for me to walk around so much without sitting breaks.

Quixoticgeek 15h ago

@steveroy almost every museum I've visited in Europe has had folding stools you can pick up on the way in and carry round then just sit down in front of the display you want to admire. Most position them near the lifts.

Steve Roy 15h ago

@quixoticgeek That’s a great idea!

Quixoticgeek 15h ago

@steveroy these are the seats I see here.

https://stockholmii.se/en/product/stockholm-ii/

NilaJones 12h ago

In the US, this is a major, unacknowledged reason why our transportation is focused around cars instead of buses and trains

Many, many people have health problems that make waiting difficult (as well as being on a slippery seat in a lurching vehicle)

The majority of our population meets the legal and medical definition for disability, although most don't identify themselves as disabled

Car manufacturers take all this into account. Cars are little comfort pods, adjustable in every possible way, cushioned in every possible direction... Cars are mobility devices for disabled folks

Any transportation system could be so much better, if we acknowledged this, if we designed for disability and comfort

Christo. London, England 9h ago

@quixoticgeek
Well said. I can manage 15 mins then spinal pain.