Is cryptocurrency good for anything?

https://lemmy.world/post/44862231

Is cryptocurrency good for anything? - Lemmy.World

Can I buy a pizza with it or pay my bills with it? Can my employer pay me in it? Or is it just an “emperor’s new clothes” thing? I just don’t see the tangible value in it. Rhetorical questions, BTW, I know you can’t buy a pizza with it, at least outside of some edge cases that I’m not aware of. I thought what made money money was everyone agreed it was valuable and was willing to exchange it for goods and services directly. I don’t see that with crypto.

It was (briefly) useful for buying and selling illicit substances.
If you were famous it was also good for scamming your audience :3

briefly

Yeah, that went away and has never happened again since.

I found crypto earlier than some. (not everyone – if I had more I wouldnt have to work anymore, haha!)

IMHO, the main value proposition of crypto is permissionless peer-to-peer payments. If we both have crypto wallets, and you send me an address to make a payment to, I can send that without needing anyone’s approval first. I don’t need any bank to agree to have me as a customer first, or any government to approve why the transaction is taking place. All I need is a functioning payment network, and the original Bitcoin white paper solved how to provide that and preserve anonymity. (Really Pseudo-anonymity, but only the nerds care about the difference)

As an academic experiment regarding permissionless payments, it is a resounding success. But, it turns out, Governments have laws regarding who can pay who regardless of the medium. So, just because Bitcoin enables permissionless payments doesn’t mean you done need to ask permission.

Furthermore, the rapid increase in crypto prices really doomed any chance at all for useful adoption. Because people don’t want to spend crypto anymore. They view it as a Store of Value, and who can blame them, given how it has risen from nothing to a > $2T market cap, even after the recent downturn? You used to be able to use crypto in regular transactions, but not anymore.

So it is digital cash without the backing of a government and no stability.
You’re not wrong, but why is not having the backing of a government a bad thing?

A currency backed by a government has a very high chance of being able to be used at any time with a mostly stable value. Sure, if the government collapses it can become worthless, but on a worldwide scale that is far, far less likely and you will most likely know if it is headed that way ahead of time.

Governments add a bit of stability for currency used as currency and not as speculation.

Tether is an interesting experiment here. They are traded as smart contract tokens on top of various blockchains. They don’t really have any intrinsic value, other than Tether LTD saying “every Tether is 100% backed by currency reserves”, and releasing unsatisfactory “audits” now and then. It’s main utility is that it provides foreign exchanges with a way to trade in something that is like Dollars without opening them up to the regulation that comes with trading actual dollars. It’s market cap is currently in excess of $180 B.

But, USDT has been around, in one form or another, since 2015. And while other “innovative” crypto products have crashed and burned, Tether has been able to keep its peg and has never failed to meet redemptions. Furthermore, it doesn’t need to be a scam. It’s whole point is to always be worth one currency unit, so all they have to do is invest that currency in safe conventional investments and they can literally make billions of dollars with very little overhead. The most obvious answer is that they are not a scam.

I still don’t really trust them, but I have used them on exchanges, always making sure to trade through Tether to something I can redeem on a US exchange for actual dollars. But, I have to acknowledge they have lasted longer the most crypto entities. I wish they would get a complete audit together, but at some point their reputation for having lasted so long needs to be worth something?

Madoff’s scheme lasted for 30 years or more, surely that means it’s worth something?

He managed to keep it up until all of a sudden he couldn’t. Madoff was undone when he had to produce 440 million that he didn’t have.

Meanwhile, Tether was able to meet billions on withdrawals, several times. After Terra collapsed, I seem to recall they saw $15B in redemptions, but I can’t find any reputable links on that. If Tether was a scam, shouldn’t it have failed a long time ago?

People outside of crypto don’t realize how massive Tether is, and how much money it has under management. As much as the crypto bros dislike Ce tral Banks, Tether has turned into one. If Tether were to ever implode, it would take most Crypto businesses with it.

reuters.com/…/stablecoin-giant-is-cryptos-fragile…

Not necessarily. They can fail whenever and it seems they’re piling into more unstable assets like bitcoin vs treasury assets.

I wouldn’t trust it personally but that’s just me.

Because a currency without a stable backing is completely volatile. Sure the value of normal currencies fluctuate, but apart from a few hyperinflation edge cases that’s at most a few percent each month.

Small cryptocurrencies fluctuate sometimes hundreds of percent each month and even the big coins can swing ±20% every few weeks. The only somewhat stable coins are the ones directly tied to real world currencies.

Having a currency that fluctuates this heavily in value creates the exact same problems as the ever changing US tarrifs did. There simply is no wax to reliably price goods and services for more than a few days. You essentially have to barter each trade.

You mean the same governments that manipulate their currency’s value?

Or in the case of the USA, a government that is spending so much that they’re basically insolvent?

Correct response
I was on a forum in 2009-2010 when another member posted asking whether they should get into bitcoin. I found a video pitching it, can’t remember if the poster linked it or I googled bitcoin after reading their post. I said it sounded sketchy and advised against it.

To be fair there’s a lot of crypto currency that has/still is a scam. Also I’d argue that BTC, and crypto in general, still is being treated as a security that’s backed by thin air. Ie: it’s a speculative asset that doesn’t actually have any value.

There’s nothing really stopping BTC from crashing hard. It’s so wild to me how people treat it.

I could have bought bitcoin too when it was worth pennies but there was no way to know which crypto the whales were going to bet on for the pump and dump. It’s a missed opportunity but rest assured there’s plenty of universes where Bitcoin amounted to nothing.

Oh I’m not losing sleep over it.

the main value proposition of crypto is permissionless peer-to-peer payments.

I think a lot of people, including myself, expected a more user-friendly experience. And what many of us realized is that a peer-to-peer payment system is a lot of work and risk for the user. Everything looks unpolished and sketchy. You don’t know if you’ve installed the right software. There’s no FDIC insuring the money, and the FBI is going to laugh if you say that you accidentally sent your life savings to the wrong crypto address.

I guess what I’m saying is that I started to realize all the labor involved in secure fiat monetary systems. For me, as someone without a lot of money or any real reason to transfer my money electronically beyond paying bills, the effort just didn’t seem worth it.

So, yeah, that’s the reason I just parked my cash in Coinbase and let it grow. The risk and the hassle of actually utilizing a peer-to-peer system didn’t seem to have much of a reward.

In short it enables strangers to make transactions without trust or the otherwise needed trusted middleman.

There are a few services you van but online that accept crypto. Like hosting provider Vultr. Other things do accept bitcoin like non official student money transfer services.

But all of this is not as wide spread. I did use it a couple of time for actually transferring money, and also buying a software plus support.

Of of our clients (fashion) did setup Etherum payments for some physical products and their NFTs and actually got sales.

It’s great for sending money abroad. No bank, minimal fees. I use it for that all the time, to send friends gifts for weddings and birthdays and stuff.

Yes, this requires everyone in the transaction to be on the network and know how to sell cryptocurrency; the question is whether it’s useful, not whether it’s useful with no caveats 😋

Why are you asking a question when you clearly made up you mind already? :)

You are wrong of course, you can buy anything with crypto as long as the other person accepts crypto (there are dozens of marketplace, not only darknet ones, e.g. xmrbazaar).
My instance hosting is paid for in Monero. I plan to change it soon to another hosting, which also accepts Monero. The domain is also paid for in Monero. Same for my VPN (Mullvad actually offers 10% off when you pay in crypto!). I regularly donate to projects such as GrapheneOS, Qubes, Whonix, TOR using Monero. I donate Monero to support people hosting things I use, e.g. invidious instances. Your employer absolutely can pay you in crypto if they choose to, and there are examples of people who do receive their salary in crypto. You could easily find examples/articles about that if you wanted to.
No, money is not defined by “everyone agreeing that it is valuable and willing to exchange it for goods and services”. Do you think Zimbabwean dollar (or any other foreign currency other than a few most popular ones) is valuable? Would you agree to sell me your goods and services for it? Why not? Right, because it is not the currency YOU use. Other people use it, so it is money for them. Same with crypto. People use it as trustless p2p money whether you like it or not.

If you need to hate crypto so much please get back to arguments such as “oh no it uses a lot of energy and allows people to freely exchange it for goods and services buy drugs on the internet”, at least those are correct. Please also subscribe to r/buttcoin if you use reddit.

r/buttcoin

hehe… “butt”

The most famous transaction was for pizza. Your question is disingenuous baiting.

Please read kobo.com/…/attack-of-the-50-foot-blockchain-bitco…

Steam STOPPED taking cryptocurrencies, because of the normal level of criminality in the people drenched in them… “you do NOT want to be doing business with these people”.

I’d use an Algorand-type blockchain for both accounting-records ( breaking “cooking the books” ) & for currency,

but then you’ve got monero which is engineered specifically to enforce that money-laundering is unbreakable, so that organized-crime can move money without any accountability ( I’m including criminal-government-entities, including insider-trading, in organized-crime ).

Nobody’s making the right infrastructure-decisions, … so whatever.

_ /\ _

That’s not true, Steam stopped accepting Bitcoin because of the large transaction fee and value volatility. Here’s the news from when they did that steamcommunity.com/games/…/1464096684955433613 in case you don’t believe someone who was buying games with BTC on Steam back then.
Steam :: Steam News :: Steam is no longer supporting Bitcoin

As of today, Steam will no longer support Bitcoin as a payment method on our platform due to high fees and volatility in the value of Bitcoin. In the past few months we've seen an increase in the volatility in the value of Bitcoin and a significant increase in the fees to process transactions on the Bitcoin network.

Bitcoin alone uses more electricity than Norway.

And that electricity is mostly from burning coal, so crypto is great for creating global warming

Wait until you hear about the energy cost of traditional finances.
This is a silly thing to say. Normal payment processing uses more energy, but that’s only because there are many, many more payments going through it. It’s orders of magnitude more energy-efficient than crypto.
Bitcoin wastes so much energy, I think all normal payment systems combined use less energy than it.

Bitcoin wastes so much energy because it’s proof of work based which to my understanding is basically a bunch of computers churning out answers competing to be “first and correct” in order to print coins.

I like the idea of decentralized currency but the current execution of cryptocurrency leaves much to be desired.

Bitcoin in specific doesn’t scale, but other things like Bitcoin Cash scale without increasing the energy usage, because the energy cost of PoW Blockchains comes from their security, not from the scale, so doing 1 or thousands of transactions costs the same.

Plus, things like Ethereum have migrated to PoS which uses very small amount of energy comparable and also scales without increasing energy costs.

Perhaps, but it’s no more silly than comparing something’s energy usage to Norway.
Bitcoin burns so much energy because it’s developers are stubborn. It’s really that simple. Ethereum transitioned to a different algorithm that uses a fraction of that energy and only a few dorks care.

Heating.

But resistive electrical heating is slightly more efficient. Heat pumps are considerably more efficient.

So - buying drugs.

and Senators
It’s great for being paid while working abroad.
It si great for taking sucker’s money.

Hide money from government

You can’t carry suitcases of money when you’re fleeing a country, so cryptos it is…

Cryptocurrency is a decentralized digital currency, it can be used for the same thing as any other digital currency, the difference being that you can use it without relying on a centralized authority like a bank or similar financial institutions.

Yes you can buy pizzas with it, although that’s less common nowadays because there are more practical ways to pay for that and you probably don’t mind the bank and government to know you buy pizzas.

I thought what made money money was everyone agreed it was valuable and was willing to exchange it for goods and services directly. I don’t see that with crypto.

You don’t? If I were to offer you 1BTC for your mouse, would you accept it? If you say no you’re stupid, if you say yes you confirmed you see it as valuable and are willing to exchange it for goods directly.

Money laundering and gambling mostly
Buying hormones for diy hrt
you can buy web hosting without revealing your identity

To be fair all it takes is for enough entities to exchange it between other assets. If you are in Europe, most stores won’t sell you anything for your USD unless you exchange it into euros (except some edge cases), so it does feel kinda similar in that sense except cryptos don’t really have a “home” country where they’re universally accepted (bar some nations whose own currency has so throughly failed they adopted it).

There are some services which allow you to spend crypto by simply doing the exchange for you at the point of purchase into whatever currency the store uses (similar to visa/MasterCard/your bank doing this if you pay by card abroad).

I’ll say ultimately though it doesn’t change a lot, the idea of crypto is great and there are some where the implementation actually yields something that could be a better money (truly yours, not controlled by a government or a company necessarily, low fees, near instant transactions), but in the end there are just too many of them and they rock the boat too much for the well established financial institutions that they’re just doomed IMO.

However, the technology itself I expect will end up being used against us by the ruling class in the coming years (i.e crypto currencies controlled by the government where they can set whatever rules they want on it).

Sometimes it’s expensive or difficult to send money between two countries, depending on which countries they are. But if you know how to send crypto, it’s the same process and price no matter where it’s going.

The way I look at it is that cryptocurrency is basically a useless security with no real use, but it can store ‘value’ in the same way those NFT things stored value for a while. There are more bullshitters for crypto, so they’ll keep that hype train going longer, and you can semi work it to get some profit by buying the security low, and selling it high.

There was a post a while ago about how around something like 2020 or whatever, with billions invested in it, and with huge amounts of power/electricity going towards it, bitcoin had something like less than 10 transactions per minute globally. Like it’s absolute dogshit when ti comes to transactions, in part because it’s not a currency despite its name.

Currencies need to depreciate in value via inflation – crypto tends to just store value and go up / down solely on its isolated demand as a nebulous concept. In fact, one of the bragging points from cryptobros is often this misguided notion that crypto is a hedge against inflation – as that ‘benefit’ basically disqualifies it as a proper currency. If you get $1000, and that $1000 is able to buy you some quantity of goods, you need that money to be able to buy less of those goods in the future in order to encourage people to actually use the fucking thing. If you had $1000, but were almost assured that it would be able to buy twice as many goods in the future if you just held on to it for a bit under your mattress, you wouldn’t spend the money… ever. Sorta like those crazy early crypto experiments where uni students were given like 25 bitcoin to see how they’d spend it – and a bunch did exactly what you said in your opening bit, bought pizzas (you could at the time). Bet they would’ve preferred to buy a bunch of houses and sports cars later on, if they’d realised how popular the fad would get. Bitcoin only tends to go ‘down’ in value when people completely exit the currency, so it’s not a valid currency.

I think you’re generally right in your note about it needing to be exchanged. The whole point of currencies is that you don’t want them to sit idle under someone’s bed. Banks/Credit Unions provide savings accounts that pay interest, though typically slightly less than inflation. This is basically a function where because of inflation, you don’t want to have your money just sit under your bed, you want to invest it in at least a savings account/term deposit – but what’s actually happening there, is that you’re committing your money to the financial institution for a fixed period, and they’re subsequently loaning that out to someone so that person can buy a house (typically) – and then their payments on that house, is what generates your interest earnings (and the banks profits). The house itself is a security, with a general stable/safe valuation, so if that person can’t make their payments on the house, the bank can foreclose, sell it, and still pay you your interest. So your savings are generally very safe – especially, frankly, with simple/smaller financial institutions that aren’t trying to do fancy bullshit / aren’t doing any higher risk wealth management type back end tricks. Main point being though, that because of inflation, even people who have ‘too much’ capital, put it into the market, and it generates economic activity as a result.

Crypto, being a security, doesn’t behave too well in this situation either – in that you can’t realistically hold a security and pay interest on it based on being able to use that security to fund other economic activity. Sorta like if someone hands you 10 shares of a stock (which has a variable price), and you’ve gotta figure out a way to pay that person back 12 shares of stock in a year, buy giving those 10 shares to someone else. What if they don’t want shares of that stock? What if the stock price goes down, or up, significantly? There’s just an absurd amount of risk, that would be considered wildly untenable for something like a person’s core savings vehicle. There are some “interest paying” crypto type accounts these days, but that’s a whole shitload of financial shenanigans and cryptobro bullshit. Cryptocurrencies are basically an economic blackhole.

And speaking of governments, anyone saying that crypto is useful because you can send money globally, is a moron. Banks/Financial institutions have the ability to do global money transfers with ease. The reason they can’t/don’t, is because of LEGAL reasons and regulatory restrictions from governments - it’s not some technical restriction that crypto magically solves. Laws like “You can’t let people fund terrorist groups”. Crypto being able to do those sorts of things quickly is just a matter of them not obeying any of the laws or regulations from governments. That’s not a ‘good’ thing in general. Many of the recent pushes from crypto sorts to get places like the States to recognize them, are basically resulting in banks getting less restrictions – which really isn’t a win. Crypto shows up and is like “We like sending money to north korea, so you gotta remove or neuter that whole know your customer thing for fintechs. Here Mr USA administration, we can pay you by buying millions of dollars of your personal ‘crypto currency’ to help with signing the bill. See, isn’t it so much better to have no regulations/oversight on transactions?! It’s win win!”

And the last negative I’ll note, from my pov at least, is that the core mechanics of most crypto currencies is obfuscated and controlled by cryptobros. Financial industry people make money, but they don’t make the sort of explosive, concentrated wealth that you see occur in crypto for the people who maintain those systems. That’s partly because the financial industry is larger, and involves government components – while crypto currencies are often just some techbro goin “let’s fork bitcoin and stick a dog face on it and sell it to morons for big $$$$ then we can FTX it up fuckin in the bahamas with uggos!”. It’s the sort of obvious conflict of interest that they all try and bullshit their way out of – one that typically doesn’t exist in fiat setups, due to the multiple layers, and the role most govs fill in regulating things.

In the distant past I used to pay for my phone bill with Bitcoin that I earned through various side jobs. That ended up being convenient because my VOIP company was based in a different country as were the side jobs. But later the transaction costs for Bitcoin rose and it didn’t make sense.

You wrote that money is money because everyone agrees it’s valuable. But if I go to a pizza place in New York City and try to pay in Thai baht, they probably won’t take it. Therefore, it’s not money… But of course it’s money. It’s just not the right kind of money for that place.

Short answer: No.
Long answer: deep breath NNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooo
I don’t think this community is meant for rhetorical questions.
Maybe I phrased the OP poorly. The “can you buy a pizza” was rhetorical. The “is crypto good for anything.” wasn’t, though I suppose that was also poorly worded. I know people buy drugs with it etc, so it’s used for something other than just speculation.

Very low fee cross-border (remittance) transfers using stablecoins (cryptoassets that are pegged to a fiat currency like the dollar) allow people to avoid getting ripped off by companies like Western Union.

On crypto platforms like Ethereum that support smart contracts (basically computer programs that run on the blockchain and allow you to automate transfers etc), you can provide liquidity to money markets and asset exchange platforms and earn many times the interest yield (APY) of what you might get at a bank for a similar thing (like 12-60% vs 2-5%). If you’re a real finance nerd you can also access various exotic financial instruments on other platforms that otherwise wouldn’t be available to you unless you were at a huge investment bank or hedge fund and even some that aren’t possible there. These are often called DeFi platforms (Decentralized Finance)

Another huge use of crypto networks are money laundering and scams though so beware. It’s still a largely unregulated black market. Never put more money into a crypto network than you can afford to lose.

It lets people buy illegal stuff (like drugs or HRT), which can be good and bad.
It’s possible to buy gift cards for different services with it.

The first real-world transaction with bitcoin was a pizza funnily enough.

A pizza for 10,000 bitcoins no less, must be the most expensive pizza in the world lmao
Ah, but would Bitcoin ever be worth more than a dollar if it wasn’t for that purchase?

Is a question still rhetorical if you’re wrong? Because you absolutely can buy a pizza and pay bills with it, you’ve been able to for years. You can also get paid in it, you’ve been able to for years.

Just because you choose not to, doesn’t mean you can’t.

Just one point to add: there is no currency that is universally accepted. You probably cant buy a pizza with Kuwaiti dinar right now either. But that’s definitely a currency. So your part about “everyone agrees” is not really true of any currency. They work only for a subset of humanity who mutually agree it has value. And you can absolutely find people who will buy crypto from you using other currencies, or give you goods and services for it. Those people are rather randomly distributed around the world though instead of being grouped inside one geographic border. That’s the only difference.