Darrell Hilliker 👨🦯♾️📡I'm starting day three without #JAWS on my new job. While JAWS is sitting there worrying about its missing authorization code and telling me I have to restart and work in 40-minute mode, #NVDA is humming along giving me exactly what I need to keep working! So now we ask which is the truly professional screen reader? #accessibility #Vispero
Vsevolod Popov@darrell73 That is interesting. I heard that in Europe and US JAWS license is provided for work places and for students. Are you simply used to JAWS or there are specific cases where NVDA doesn't really work in software you use? Great that NVDA works for you!
Nikolett Till@Sevapopov @darrell73 I wouldn't say it's provided, because it's not given for free except for a few countries, including Hungary. Here our government supports blind people by providing free licenses to those who apply for it with a hungarian ID. But at work I suppose you have to use either your own license, or the company buys it for you. The problem is that a lot of european companies disallow using NVDA so those who aren't used to Jaws, have to suffer.
@destranis @Sevapopov How do these European companies justify disallowing #NVDA while still using open-source browsing engines?
@darrell73 @Sevapopov You know, that's a valid question. I have no idea. The only thing I know is that for example here in Hungary you can't really work using NVDA, because they generally consider open source programs harmful.
@destranis @Sevapopov Fascinating, so how do they handle open-source web browsers like Chrome and Firefox? Do they ban virtually all web browsers too?
@darrell73 @Sevapopov You are simply not allowed to install anything else. You aren't the administrator of the laptop you get for work and you can't work on your own computer because they fire you. They install aproved browsers for you if they even install any and you aren't stuck with Edge. So literally they set up the laptop for you and even if you wanted to use open source browsers, you can't do it.
NV Access@destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov It sounds like your employer is simply controlling over what software you can use - and that itself is not uncommon anywhere in the world - In almost all cases, that of itself is not anti-open source, rather it is done in the interest of security
Keri Svendsen@NVAccess @destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov Any US company with HIPPA and other tight restrictions refuse to use any open source software. :( I can't speak to other countries though.
@sapphireangel @destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov That is simply not true! HIPAA has to do with privacy of patient health information, and nothing to do with the code of any programs in use. NVDA is used by plenty of organisations with HIPAA requirements and we regularly answer queries on that because companies need to know that data is safe (NVDA does not save or send personal information anyway, so it's fine). See https://www.nvaccess.org/corporate-government/#collectedInfo
@NVAccess @destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov I'm just telling you what I know from working in the healthcare industry and the strictness of HIPPA. NVDA hasn't been allowed. I wish it wasn't such a legal mess to use it because I'd rather it than jaws, but saying you do these things, isn't enough for most agencies. I'm glad NVDA has made huge steps in Europe though. The US may be tougher in many aspects. My understanding of HIPPA is it takes more than just saying you do a bunch of stuff.
@sapphireangel @destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov And I'm telling you that is wrong. NVDA is used in numerous healthcare settings. HIPAA has nothing to do with open vs closed source. Please provide a link to back that claim up? I provided links to dozens of pages citing using open source programs in HIPAA environments, and the HHS page explaining what HIPAA is which mentions nothing about software licenses. Once again, if your organisation won't allow NVDA, I'm happy to talk with them.
@NVAccess @destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov My guess is the agencies that are are smaller. Bigger companies in my experience won't. I think NVDA has same issues that AIRA does. Granted Aira isn't open source, but companies won't allow software on its systems easily or to see protected information. Especially with all the extra protections and restrictions with HIPPA honestly without a lot more work it is legally a risk for a company to do so.
@NVAccess @destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov I know that NVDA is careful, but unfortunately most won't believe it with how often security breeches happen here. This is why a company takes a huge legal risk using something not well known to the general public. Especially when the gov states concerns of open source. https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/open-source-software-risks-in-the-health-sector-tlpclear.pdf
@sapphireangel @destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov Please stop spreading false information. I have provided dozens of links, you have provided nothing. You don't even need to trust NVDA. Block it from accessing the internet at the firewall and it will still work fine - perfect HIPAA complaiance even if you don't trust us.
@sapphireangel @destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov Let me quote YOUR link: "How Prevalent is Open-Source Software?
• OSS is part of the foundation of software used to support every single critical infrastructure sector and every National Critical Function (NCF).
• One study found that 96% of studied codebases across various sectors contain open-source code, and 76% of code in studied codebases was open source, according to Synopsis."
You want to argue again how open source can't be used in HIPAA?
@NVAccess @destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov Take a look at the concerns section there, and talk to many attorneys in the US around this. Many agencies never touch open source software. Hopefully that is changing, but I don't appreciate your complete disregard for myself and others who experience the atitudes and behaviors constantly in the industry. Just because some places use it doesn't mean all do, and it is a battle to prove. Please don't ignore people when they are sharing of the every day.
@sapphireangel @destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov I'm not disregarding you, I'm just telling you which points you are wrong on because spreading false information specifically hurts us. Your own link didn't say not to use open source. Even if your boss says you can't use NVDA because it is open source, that is not policy at ANY company (if so please share the link)
@NVAccess @destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov You clearly expect everything to be documented online and it's not. I believe informing people. this isn't just some companies refusing. It is often across the board. I'm not going to lie to people about my experience and argue with legal departments tooth and nail. I've tried a couple open source software requests as accommodation and they are always declined as "open source."
@sapphireangel @destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov And I'm telling you that every published government and corporate policy ENCOURAGES the use of open source. There is no evidence that it is less secure, particularly when it is maintained and verifiable as NVDA is. I'm not asking you to lie. I've backed up every point I've made with independent links & can keep going on the concerns section of that doc if you are interested? There is no case that open source cannot be use in HIPAA or anywhere else.
@NVAccess @destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov and I'm telling you many agencies won't touch open source regardless of any kind. You can keep saying NVDA is used, and meets requirements and that is great, but that doesn't make it all clear all over. Please don't give everyone false hope when they get mad when a company tells them no NVDA.
@sapphireangel @destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov I've offered to talk to your employer. I've talked to many organisations. I've provided you DOZENS of links backing up everything I've said. If someone tells you that open source cannot be used in healthcare, they are lying, pure & simple. Ask them for evidence. Ask them to contact me ([email protected]), ask them to read any of the many documents refuting that. But don't accept it & then say "oh well, that's how it is". Because it isn't.
Martin@NVAccess @sapphireangel @destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov I would pick him up on his offer. I mean, you have nothing to lose.
Alex Chapman@mcourcel @NVAccess @sapphireangel @destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov Yeah I agree, its about time we stop willingly handing Vispero thousands for a screen reader.
@sapphireangel @destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov I really didn't mean to attack you. TBH, I don't hear "open source is unsafe" too often these days. The world has definitely moved on from the 1990s, so when I do hear it & in the resigned way you seemed to have accepted it, then it does make me want to show how that definitely isn't the case. I'm not saying you haven't been told that, I believe you! I'm telling you THEY were wrong to tell you that, & I'm more than happy to take that up with them.
@sapphireangel @destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov Again from your link: "Examples of OSS in the Health Sector
• Electronic Medical Records (EMR) software:
OpenEMR, OpenMRS, OpenClinic, RPMS
• Inventory Management:
HospitalRun, MedSupply, SurgiCare Inventory
• Prescription Software:
OPENeP, Open Hospital, PatientOS
• Laboratory Management:
OpenLIMS, FreeLIMS,
• Clinic Management:
OpenClinic, Mr Tooth, OpenEMR
• Medical Billing:
OpenEMR, MedManage, OpenPMS
"
• Electronic Medical Records (EMR) software:
OpenEMR, OpenMRS, OpenClinic, RPMS
• Inventory Management:
HospitalRun, MedSupply, SurgiCare Inventory
• Prescription Software:
OPENeP, Open Hospital, PatientOS
• Laboratory Management:
OpenLIMS, FreeLIMS,
• Clinic Management:
OpenClinic, Mr Tooth, OpenEMR
• Medical Billing:
OpenEMR, MedManage, OpenPMS
"
@NVAccess @destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov Not everything is easily documented online. Keep that in mind. I literally have had requests denied because of the open source info so I will not stop sharing my experience. People need to be aware this happens a lot.
@sapphireangel @destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov And I'm telling you that is an excuse, not a valid argument. Ok the concerns section of your doc: "f the source code of software is put in the public
domain, it can be accessed by anyone. While this is generally a good thing, bad actors can also access the code to look for vulnerabilities." - generally good. Also the flip side is that vulnerabilities in closed source are found as easily but not fixed as quickly: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8432467
domain, it can be accessed by anyone. While this is generally a good thing, bad actors can also access the code to look for vulnerabilities." - generally good. Also the flip side is that vulnerabilities in closed source are found as easily but not fixed as quickly: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8432467
@NVAccess @destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov You like Aira can shout all day long that you are compliant but it will take a lot more here to prove that, then just that. I wish it was so simple. So many people have been denied many assistive tech because of some of the beliefs. To be honest seeing how easily HIPPA is also violated here... I don't blame companies for being paranoid. It can be a legal mess here. I however only use NVDA in my personal life.
@sapphireangel @destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov Your own reference only cites potential risks, which it agrees are often present in closed source as well, it does NOT say not to use OSS. People are mostly denied assistive technology because companies don't want to use ANY additional software, open or closed source. More companies are willing to use something which won't cost them anything. I am more than happy to talk to your organisation, but please stop saying it is because it is open source
@sapphireangel @destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov Here is a search with a bunch of other resources: https://www.bing.com/search?q=can+open+source+software+be+used+in+a+hipaa+environment&cvid=bb581591c0714704886d7ea84229f72f&gs_lcrp=EgRlZGdlKgYIABBFGDkyBggAEEUYOTIGCAEQABhAMgYIAhAAGEAyBggDEAAYQDIGCAQQABhAMgYIBRAAGEAyBggGEAAYQDIGCAcQABhAMgcICBDrBxhA0gEIOTUzM2owajSoAgCwAgA&FORM=ANAB01&adppc=EDGEESS&PC=EDGEESS
If you work for an organisation which is reluctant to use NVDA, please reach out, we're happy to speak with them. :)
@destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov Can you please share links backing that up? It is definitely not a widespread belief, or a formal policy from the Hungarian government. If it is, it contradicts THIS national position agreed to by over 20 government departments & other institutions: https://nkfih.gov.hu/openscience
See also: https://openscience.hu/hunor/
https://hun-ren.hu/open_science/
https://researchdata.hu/en/news/open-science-hungarian-research
"Gov’t rolls out free, open-source OS for Digital Welfare Program" https://bbj.hu/politics/domestic/government/gov-t-rolls-out-free-open-source-os-for-digital-welfare-program/
I can find more.
@darrell73 @destranis @Sevapopov Any particular companies? We'd be happy to talk with them! We've had quite a bit of interest lately from Europe, so it's definitely not all of them :)
@destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov I'd be happy to reach out to them if you would like? I don't need to mention you of course :)
@NVAccess @darrell73 @Sevapopov I don't work there, I'm not a programmer myself. I just know it from first hands as my acquaintance works there for more than a year now.
@destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov While they don't mention open-source on their website, on https://www.evosoft.com/en/company/ they say: "About As a 100% Siemens subsidiary, evosoft GmbH is an international IT company with headquarters in Nuremberg and nearshore partners in Hungary, Romania and Turkey. Tailormade".
Siemens then, have a whole sub-domain focussing on open source: https://opensource.siemens.com/