Darrell Hilliker π¨βπ¦―βΎοΈπ‘I'm starting day three without #JAWS on my new job. While JAWS is sitting there worrying about its missing authorization code and telling me I have to restart and work in 40-minute mode, #NVDA is humming along giving me exactly what I need to keep working! So now we ask which is the truly professional screen reader? #accessibility #Vispero
alexr
AndrΓ© Polykanine@darrell73 Sorry, but it's not about professional screen reader. I personally cannot stand how NVDA works in the web, constant searching for flaky addons (some of which don't survive updates), etc., etc.
@darrell73 VoiceOver on the Mac. But actually, is it a Scren Reader issue, or IT?
@hallen I'd never ever consider using a Mac for anything work-related until VoiceOver got an overhaul to get rid of its latency, busy busy, etc.
@darrell73 That has never been much of an issue for me, but then I started with the Mac in 2019 when even then, Intel processors were pretty good. When it has happened, it is usually in Safari.
Nikolett Till@darrell73 While I'm also an NVDA user, I'm genuinely curious, what happened to your Jaws license? If you didn't pay for it, of course it's not going to work. How did they even allow you to install NVDA on your working machine? That's prohibited at most of the time for some reason and I also don't agree with this decision, but big companies will always win in these cases.
@destranis All the web browsers are either partially or totally open-source and they're all used in enterprises, so, until all the browsers are removed from all the computers, there's no valid argument or excuse for not using NVDA or any other screen reader. The trouble is that as of now its sadly much easier to just throw the blind person away and move on than it is to be diligent and do the right things.
@TheQuinbox @darrell73 That's because JAWS isn't authorized.
@vol4life8657 @TheQuinbox I know... But we do have a license. There's a problem we're all troubleshooting. I'm just stating the facts about the difference in imperative between making sure to collect the money first and simply getting the blind person to work as quickly and hassle-free as possible.
@darrell73 @TheQuinbox Oh boy, lisencing problems, delt with those.
Vsevolod Popov@darrell73 That is interesting. I heard that in Europe and US JAWS license is provided for work places and for students. Are you simply used to JAWS or there are specific cases where NVDA doesn't really work in software you use? Great that NVDA works for you!
@Sevapopov @darrell73 I wouldn't say it's provided, because it's not given for free except for a few countries, including Hungary. Here our government supports blind people by providing free licenses to those who apply for it with a hungarian ID. But at work I suppose you have to use either your own license, or the company buys it for you. The problem is that a lot of european companies disallow using NVDA so those who aren't used to Jaws, have to suffer.
@destranis @Sevapopov How do these European companies justify disallowing #NVDA while still using open-source browsing engines?
@darrell73 @Sevapopov You know, that's a valid question. I have no idea. The only thing I know is that for example here in Hungary you can't really work using NVDA, because they generally consider open source programs harmful.
@destranis @Sevapopov Fascinating, so how do they handle open-source web browsers like Chrome and Firefox? Do they ban virtually all web browsers too?
@darrell73 @Sevapopov You are simply not allowed to install anything else. You aren't the administrator of the laptop you get for work and you can't work on your own computer because they fire you. They install aproved browsers for you if they even install any and you aren't stuck with Edge. So literally they set up the laptop for you and even if you wanted to use open source browsers, you can't do it.
NV Access@destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov It sounds like your employer is simply controlling over what software you can use - and that itself is not uncommon anywhere in the world - In almost all cases, that of itself is not anti-open source, rather it is done in the interest of security
Keri Svendsen@NVAccess @destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov Any US company with HIPPA and other tight restrictions refuse to use any open source software. :( I can't speak to other countries though.
@sapphireangel @destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov That is simply not true! HIPAA has to do with privacy of patient health information, and nothing to do with the code of any programs in use. NVDA is used by plenty of organisations with HIPAA requirements and we regularly answer queries on that because companies need to know that data is safe (NVDA does not save or send personal information anyway, so it's fine). See https://www.nvaccess.org/corporate-government/#collectedInfo
@NVAccess @destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov I'm just telling you what I know from working in the healthcare industry and the strictness of HIPPA. NVDA hasn't been allowed. I wish it wasn't such a legal mess to use it because I'd rather it than jaws, but saying you do these things, isn't enough for most agencies. I'm glad NVDA has made huge steps in Europe though. The US may be tougher in many aspects. My understanding of HIPPA is it takes more than just saying you do a bunch of stuff.
@sapphireangel @destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov And I'm telling you that is wrong. NVDA is used in numerous healthcare settings. HIPAA has nothing to do with open vs closed source. Please provide a link to back that claim up? I provided links to dozens of pages citing using open source programs in HIPAA environments, and the HHS page explaining what HIPAA is which mentions nothing about software licenses. Once again, if your organisation won't allow NVDA, I'm happy to talk with them.
@NVAccess @destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov My guess is the agencies that are are smaller. Bigger companies in my experience won't. I think NVDA has same issues that AIRA does. Granted Aira isn't open source, but companies won't allow software on its systems easily or to see protected information. Especially with all the extra protections and restrictions with HIPPA honestly without a lot more work it is legally a risk for a company to do so.
@NVAccess @destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov I know that NVDA is careful, but unfortunately most won't believe it with how often security breeches happen here. This is why a company takes a huge legal risk using something not well known to the general public. Especially when the gov states concerns of open source. https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/open-source-software-risks-in-the-health-sector-tlpclear.pdf
@sapphireangel @destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov Please stop spreading false information. I have provided dozens of links, you have provided nothing. You don't even need to trust NVDA. Block it from accessing the internet at the firewall and it will still work fine - perfect HIPAA complaiance even if you don't trust us.
@NVAccess @sapphireangel @darrell73 @Sevapopov I don't think he's against NVDA or you personally, it's just what he, and overall we, see from companies. I'm pretty sure we all want NVDA to be allowed everywhere but that is what we experience.
@sapphireangel @destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov Let me quote YOUR link: "How Prevalent is Open-Source Software?
β’ OSS is part of the foundation of software used to support every single critical infrastructure sector and every National Critical Function (NCF).
β’ One study found that 96% of studied codebases across various sectors contain open-source code, and 76% of code in studied codebases was open source, according to Synopsis."
You want to argue again how open source can't be used in HIPAA?
@NVAccess @destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov Take a look at the concerns section there, and talk to many attorneys in the US around this. Many agencies never touch open source software. Hopefully that is changing, but I don't appreciate your complete disregard for myself and others who experience the atitudes and behaviors constantly in the industry. Just because some places use it doesn't mean all do, and it is a battle to prove. Please don't ignore people when they are sharing of the every day.
@sapphireangel @destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov I'm not disregarding you, I'm just telling you which points you are wrong on because spreading false information specifically hurts us. Your own link didn't say not to use open source. Even if your boss says you can't use NVDA because it is open source, that is not policy at ANY company (if so please share the link)
@NVAccess @destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov You clearly expect everything to be documented online and it's not. I believe informing people. this isn't just some companies refusing. It is often across the board. I'm not going to lie to people about my experience and argue with legal departments tooth and nail. I've tried a couple open source software requests as accommodation and they are always declined as "open source."
@sapphireangel @destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov And I'm telling you that every published government and corporate policy ENCOURAGES the use of open source. There is no evidence that it is less secure, particularly when it is maintained and verifiable as NVDA is. I'm not asking you to lie. I've backed up every point I've made with independent links & can keep going on the concerns section of that doc if you are interested? There is no case that open source cannot be use in HIPAA or anywhere else.
@NVAccess @destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov and I'm telling you many agencies won't touch open source regardless of any kind. You can keep saying NVDA is used, and meets requirements and that is great, but that doesn't make it all clear all over. Please don't give everyone false hope when they get mad when a company tells them no NVDA.
@sapphireangel @destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov I've offered to talk to your employer. I've talked to many organisations. I've provided you DOZENS of links backing up everything I've said. If someone tells you that open source cannot be used in healthcare, they are lying, pure & simple. Ask them for evidence. Ask them to contact me ([email protected]), ask them to read any of the many documents refuting that. But don't accept it & then say "oh well, that's how it is". Because it isn't.
@NVAccess @sapphireangel @destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov I would pick him up on his offer. I mean, you have nothing to lose.
@sapphireangel @destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov I really didn't mean to attack you. TBH, I don't hear "open source is unsafe" too often these days. The world has definitely moved on from the 1990s, so when I do hear it & in the resigned way you seemed to have accepted it, then it does make me want to show how that definitely isn't the case. I'm not saying you haven't been told that, I believe you! I'm telling you THEY were wrong to tell you that, & I'm more than happy to take that up with them.
@sapphireangel @destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov Again from your link: "Examples of OSS in the Health Sector
β’ Electronic Medical Records (EMR) software:
ο§ OpenEMR, OpenMRS, OpenClinic, RPMS
β’ Inventory Management:
ο§ HospitalRun, MedSupply, SurgiCare Inventory
β’ Prescription Software:
ο§ OPENeP, Open Hospital, PatientOS
β’ Laboratory Management:
ο§ OpenLIMS, FreeLIMS,
β’ Clinic Management:
ο§ OpenClinic, Mr Tooth, OpenEMR
β’ Medical Billing:
ο§ OpenEMR, MedManage, OpenPMS
"
β’ Electronic Medical Records (EMR) software:
ο§ OpenEMR, OpenMRS, OpenClinic, RPMS
β’ Inventory Management:
ο§ HospitalRun, MedSupply, SurgiCare Inventory
β’ Prescription Software:
ο§ OPENeP, Open Hospital, PatientOS
β’ Laboratory Management:
ο§ OpenLIMS, FreeLIMS,
β’ Clinic Management:
ο§ OpenClinic, Mr Tooth, OpenEMR
β’ Medical Billing:
ο§ OpenEMR, MedManage, OpenPMS
"
@NVAccess @destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov Not everything is easily documented online. Keep that in mind. I literally have had requests denied because of the open source info so I will not stop sharing my experience. People need to be aware this happens a lot.
@sapphireangel @destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov And I'm telling you that is an excuse, not a valid argument. Ok the concerns section of your doc: "f the source code of software is put in the public
domain, it can be accessed by anyone. While this is generally a good thing, bad actors can also access the code to look for vulnerabilities." - generally good. Also the flip side is that vulnerabilities in closed source are found as easily but not fixed as quickly: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8432467
domain, it can be accessed by anyone. While this is generally a good thing, bad actors can also access the code to look for vulnerabilities." - generally good. Also the flip side is that vulnerabilities in closed source are found as easily but not fixed as quickly: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8432467
@NVAccess @destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov You like Aira can shout all day long that you are compliant but it will take a lot more here to prove that, then just that. I wish it was so simple. So many people have been denied many assistive tech because of some of the beliefs. To be honest seeing how easily HIPPA is also violated here... I don't blame companies for being paranoid. It can be a legal mess here. I however only use NVDA in my personal life.
@sapphireangel @destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov Your own reference only cites potential risks, which it agrees are often present in closed source as well, it does NOT say not to use OSS. People are mostly denied assistive technology because companies don't want to use ANY additional software, open or closed source. More companies are willing to use something which won't cost them anything. I am more than happy to talk to your organisation, but please stop saying it is because it is open source
@sapphireangel @destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov Here is a search with a bunch of other resources: https://www.bing.com/search?q=can+open+source+software+be+used+in+a+hipaa+environment&cvid=bb581591c0714704886d7ea84229f72f&gs_lcrp=EgRlZGdlKgYIABBFGDkyBggAEEUYOTIGCAEQABhAMgYIAhAAGEAyBggDEAAYQDIGCAQQABhAMgYIBRAAGEAyBggGEAAYQDIGCAcQABhAMgcICBDrBxhA0gEIOTUzM2owajSoAgCwAgA&FORM=ANAB01&adppc=EDGEESS&PC=EDGEESS
If you work for an organisation which is reluctant to use NVDA, please reach out, we're happy to speak with them. :)
@destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov Can you please share links backing that up? It is definitely not a widespread belief, or a formal policy from the Hungarian government. If it is, it contradicts THIS national position agreed to by over 20 government departments & other institutions: https://nkfih.gov.hu/openscience
See also: https://openscience.hu/hunor/
https://hun-ren.hu/open_science/
https://researchdata.hu/en/news/open-science-hungarian-research
"Govβt rolls out free, open-source OS for Digital Welfare Program" https://bbj.hu/politics/domestic/government/gov-t-rolls-out-free-open-source-os-for-digital-welfare-program/
I can find more.
@darrell73 @destranis @Sevapopov Any particular companies? We'd be happy to talk with them! We've had quite a bit of interest lately from Europe, so it's definitely not all of them :)
@destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov I'd be happy to reach out to them if you would like? I don't need to mention you of course :)
@NVAccess @darrell73 @Sevapopov I don't work there, I'm not a programmer myself. I just know it from first hands as my acquaintance works there for more than a year now.
@destranis @darrell73 @Sevapopov While they don't mention open-source on their website, on https://www.evosoft.com/en/company/ they say: "About As a 100% Siemens subsidiary, evosoft GmbH is an international IT company with headquarters in Nuremberg and nearshore partners in Hungary, Romania and Turkey. Tailormade".
Siemens then, have a whole sub-domain focussing on open source: https://opensource.siemens.com/
@destranis @Sevapopov Here in the US JAWS is typically provided by a K-12 educational institution like a school for children or Vocational Rehabilitation for adults seeking employment or business ownership. We do OK for children but not well at all for adults not seeking employment. No employment goal means no VR and no JAWS. Fortunately we have NVDA on Windows and its free. Lots to unpack here and all this to say it's no bed of roses even here in the USA.
@darrell73 @Sevapopov And is it generally allowed in the USA to use NVDA for work purposes?
@darrell73 I think this goes a bit deeper than which screen reader is more professional. I love NVDA, and have a deep, deep dislike of JAWS. That said, I have to restart NVDA sometimes 20+ times a day. It suffers from stutters, freezes, hangs and sometimes crashes. If an app goes unresponsive, it takes NVDA out. If you're llucky, you can recover with Narrator, or sometimes even just CTRL+ALT+N to restart NVDA. But I've had times where it seems like the entire accessibility stack got taken out.
Try to use Event Viewer with NVDA and see how far you get. Try it with Narrator even - I bet you get a bit farther. Then try it with JAWS. It actually functions. Look at the difference in Visual Studio. There are things Narraotr reads that JAWS doesn't, but the latter tends to be more consistent and pick up more than NVDA does.
We could argue about equal access and being able to use what you pay for, but I think that'd be missing the point. Personally, I'd like to see a bit more from Vispero than restart your computer, but what would a perfect solution be when your license expires? They could take the position that you're not paying for the thing you're attempting to use at that point, so why should you get to use it? I'd like to see a middle ground between that stance and 40 minute mode. At some point though, you have to accept the fact that they're not going to allow you to use a product you're not licensed to use.
@bscross32 That's funny as I say the same thing about JAWS being too laggy, etc.
@darrell73 Oh JAWS is definitely laggy on my system, which is an AMD, where NVDA generally is not, or at least, when it is, it's predictably lagging due to something it's just not good at. Even turning input help mode on and hitting a key takes llike a quarter of a second to speak the key and what it does. I showed this to a very pro JAWS person I know and even they admit it's not normal. But this is across OS installs, it's just the way JAWS runs on this machine.
@bscross32 @darrell73 Having to restart NVDA multiple times a day definitely isn't expected or usual, and certainly shouldn't be assumed normal. We'd be happy to talk further about what is triggering it (you mentioned Visual Studio, and I can see a search for that brings up a number of issues on our tracker (which may or may not be related): https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues?q=is%3Aissue%20state%3Aopen%20visual%20studio I would definitely want to make sure that any issues you are facing are listed.
1/2
1/2
@bscross32 @darrell73 The first thing I would generally recommend where you are seeing issues like this is to press NVDA+q then down arrow to "restart with add-ons disabled" and enter - and see if it still happens. If we can narrow it down to a specific add-on, or to a specific sequence of keystrokes / program usage without add-ons running, that definitely helps track down where the issue is.
@NVAccess @darrell73 It's more than I want to get into if I'm honest. Nothing is related to Visual Studio in this case. I think most of it is machine specific or possibly OS specific since I tend to like to do a reinstallation of Windows every year, and I haven't in the past 2 and a bit.
@bscross32 @darrell73 That's ok, we're here (or on email at [email protected]) if you ever want to follow up - I was just concerned because regular freezing or crashing definitely isn't normal and IS something we would be interested in resolving if it is affecting multiple users.
Actually your other point is interesting - I used to reinstall Windows (XP, etc) every 6-12 months as well, but I've had this machine for a few years and never reinstalled it, so credit to Microsoft for that.
Andrew Hodgson@jonathan859 @darrell73 Is the auth missing because you're waiting for funding for it or is it for some other work reason? Couldn't agree more on NVDA, I think we'll see a wave of more young blind professionals actually prefer it over JFW going forward.
@andrew @jonathan859 @darrell73 I've had instances where at work, if the internet goes out, so does the network license. I honestly think let's just use something free and that works just as well (when compared broadly) rather than having to go through all the trouble to make sure we're paying to see a screen.