AI6YR Ben1d ago
LOL I won't ride any of the LTS 4 and monst of the LTS3 streets here, which is where our city puts their "bike lanes". After seeing the "bike streets" and modal filters in Santa Barbara, California, I think that's the easiest way to make cycling possible in the suburbs here. #BikeTooter
Show threadVelocipedestrienne 🇿🇦1d ago
@ai6yr So the thing about putting bike lanes on LTS4 and LTS3 streets is that yes, there IS a better alternative, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't serve the people who are going to cycle on those streets anyway. Invariably, people will cycle on them, so you should do the retrofitting to make them a SAFER space to do it. And last I checked, even shitty bike lanes do increase safety even though they don't ensure it. It should be done, but isn't the ONLY thing that should be done.
Show threadDemonHusky1d ago
@HayiWena @ai6yr if it's an LTS4 after bike lanes are installed, the engineer is bad but also I don't think it's worth installing it for whatever marginal gain you got. You now put a bike lane effectively no one is going to use on what is likely the most significant road, meaning people that don't want real changes can reasonably point to the shitty bike lane and say "why bother".
Show threadNilaJones1d ago

@DemonHusky @HayiWena @ai6yr

Yeah so frustrating! I've visited so many towns and small cities and neighborhoods in big cities, where the only bike infrastructure was on the main drag. With cars going 45mph and nothing but paint to protect you

We need to bicyclize the small streets first, and the main drag after

In places built during the era of the cul-de-sac, sometimes the main drag is the only route from a to b. That way means we need to create woonerfs, pave the often already existing informal paths that connect one cul-de-sac neighborhood to the next

I think the reason city planners put bike lanes on the main drag is partly that it's visible, so it looks like they're doing something. And partly that it doesn't occur to them that someone might take back streets to get from one place to another

Obviously the solution is to stack the planning committees with bicyclists, and give them a larger budget than the part of the transportation department that deals with car streets

Somehow we need to convince people that the future is micromobility, and any money spent accommodating cars is probably wasted

Show threadDemonHusky1d ago
@NilaJones @HayiWena @ai6yr it's definitely depends on location (and by that I mostly mean political will), but the best case is to do the main streets with the destinations that people are traveling to first, because if you can't get to your destination safely, you aren't biking there.
Show threadNilaJones1d ago

@DemonHusky @HayiWena @ai6yr

That's not how bicyclists get places

They don't go along the main drag, unless they are in a neighborhood that doesn't have any quiet through streets

And even then, they probably cobble together a zigzag route, that avoids the main drag as much as possible, cuts through alleys and parking lots and dirt trails, etc. Anything to avoid being where the cars are

After traveling a mile or two on back streets, they go the final block on a busier street, to get to the actual destination

The question is, how do we codify this and make it safer?

Show threadDemonHusky22h ago
@NilaJones @HayiWena @ai6yr Cyclists don't travel on the main road because the main road is crap. Most cyclists (and here I'm including all the cyclists that choose not to ride because the destination isn't safe) don't /want/ to zig zag and take parking lots and alleys, they choose to get where they are going safely and efficiently. For some that means zigzag, most that means just not biking. But to my point above, a painted bike lane next to 45mph cars is not a sufficient bike lane.
Show threadDemonHusky22h ago

@NilaJones @HayiWena @ai6yr There is a method to codify what a sufficient bike lane is for the car traffic and it is commonly used by industry (those LTS numbers used above) called Level of Traffic Stress.

https://peterfurth.sites.northeastern.edu/level-of-traffic-stress/

I promise you, if the bike lane is low enough stress, people /will/ bike on the main street, even with little kids in the middle of the winter
https://mas.to/@DemonHusky/114048940987545302

Show threadNilaJones

@DemonHusky @HayiWena @ai6yr

Well, this is getting into potato potahto territory

I've used bike lanes like that, with serious separation, and on a fairly busy street

They're not personally to my taste, I still prefer to take the quiet street one block over, where I can cruise along and look at buildings and greenery, and not have to focus on pedestrians constantly stepping out in front of me, lights at every intersection, etc

But I can certainly see how some people might prefer the busy shopping street

Mar 23 at 12:18amWeb
Show threadDemonHusky22h ago
@NilaJones @HayiWena @ai6yr I totally choose to take a more scenic route often enough, but if the goal is to make a network that induces new ridership, you need to make the destination streets good. @TheWarOnCars talked about this recently with Portland, where they became a "bike city" by doing neighborhood greenways without making the main streets better, which hasn't been as durable of a change as other cities that have focused on main streets
Show threadNilaJones22h ago

@DemonHusky @HayiWena @ai6yr @TheWarOnCars

That's really interesting! I thought it was exactly the opposite

The cities I know, where biking to work is a normal thing, year round, have the neighborhood green streets. And the cities I know that have the bike lane along the main drag, nobody bikes there

But I would have counted Portland in the former group! When I've been there, in the winter, there were a lot of people biking

Show threadDemonHusky21h ago
@NilaJones @HayiWena @ai6yr @TheWarOnCars my guess is that those bike lanes are pretty terrible for the level of traffic, so obviously people aren't using them. And I totally support making neighborways to improve connectivity and comfort. I mostly think that neighborways are for people currently biking and a GOOD bike lane on a main road is for people that wish they could bike, and that second group is so much larger than the first group
Show threadNilaJones21h ago

@DemonHusky @HayiWena @ai6yr @TheWarOnCars

That is a very interesting point

I was thinking in terms of a third group, the people who get on a bike with their kids on a sunny weekend day, but it would never even occur to them to take their bike to work, or grocery shopping. Because biking is a recreational family activity

I was thinking that the boutique street separated bike lane was targeting that group

But you're right that there's a whole other group, the people who don't think about biking unless they see a bike lane at the place that they are headed to in their car, and then they think hey I could do that maybe

Show threadCJPaloma might be hiking21h ago

@NilaJones @DemonHusky @HayiWena @ai6yr @TheWarOnCars

Related to the one street over: noise levels matter, and contribute to my sense of safety and enjoyment.

You give me a separated super safe bike lane on a busy street and I most likely will still be one street over …unless I have to cross a bridge or something. just another aspect of it, at least for me.

Show threadDemonHusky19h ago

@CJPaloma @NilaJones @HayiWena @ai6yr yeah, I've thought about noise, even had a short conversation with Prof Furth about how it might be missing from LTS. He has worked on an adjustment based on hilliness, so I think a similar thing could be for noise.

There's a great river path in Boston that sometimes is right next to the highway. There is a real highway barrier between the path and the highway so it's not really a safety concern, but the noise still makes that section more stressful.