Mongostein“I don’t think Stalin is someone to be looked up to”
“REEEEEEEEEE”
Murdering your own people = “flawed”? He was a monster. Him helping to defeat a different monster doesn’t change that.
I don’t consider the bourgeoisie to be people.
Even if we believed the wildly exaggerated numbers from the black book of communism, that still doesn’t compare to the victims of capitalism, Churchill alone killed millions in Bengal but you don’t care about that do you
Ah but you see Bengalis are brown so they tuned everything after that out.
I’m not the one defending atrocities, you guys are. Whataboutism doesn’t stop the guy YOU’RE actively choosing to idolize from being terrible.
If your claim is that he’s bad because he killed people and we show that capitalists killed more people that seems like a relevant counterargument, no? Or do bad things only count when state department propaganda agrees with you?
What do you think you’re countering with that argument? No one was discussing communism it capitalism in this argument. Just: Stalin was an evil man.
Saying someone else was more evil doesn’t unmurder all those people, does it? You’ve countered no part of anyone’s argument because no one mentioned anything about what you think you’ve countered. You just tried to distract from the fact that you idolize a piece of shit. It’s bizarre you can’t grasp that.
"If I condemn everything and everyone, that makes me the most pure! Actually try to make the world better? That would only degrade my purity!’
How was Stalin an “eViL” man when all he did was to kill some Nazis? Thats like calling an antibiotic evil for killing bacteria.
"If I condemn everything and everyone, that makes me the most pure! Actually try to make the world better? That would only degrade my purity!’
Let’s start with the basics, do you condemn Churchill?
Anarcho-BolshevikCome on, you already know what they are going to say to that.
Naturally 🤣
He’s more of a son of a bitch than Randy Walters!
See this is what we’re talking about, you correctly see through some lazy capitalist mythologies (such as anarchists being mindless drug-addled destruction junkies with no political goals other than chaos) but fail to see through others, such as “Stalin was The Guy in charge of the USSR and he killed eighty bazillion people through nonspecific means, for no reason other than he was The Joker”.
Non specific means? Even if you ignore the orchestrated famine, He enacted paranoid political purges of engineers, scientists, academics, etc. Those are direct murders of people he didn’t like. And you’re over here like: he’s misunderstood. And your defense is: nuh uh/Whataboutism.
At no point did I defend capitalism. I said Stalin was a monster. And that’s an indisputable fact.
orchestrated famine
Utterly incorrect, as even “cold warrior” historians like Robert Conquest qete forced to attest after the opening of the Soviet archives. And again, no motivation. Just “evil”.
He enacted paranoid political purges of engineers, scientists, academics, etc
Getting rid of monarchist figurehead is Good, Actually. And again: “He”. As if the Soviet union was ruled by one guy. An utterly historically illiterate take, you are simply repeating lazy mythology.
people he didn’t like
This is like when fascists say "you can’t just call people you disagree with nazis. Who were these people the Soviet union didn’t like? Might it have something to do with the genocide that was perpetrated on them, and the massive US invasion perpetrated before that? The fact that you cannot be specific at all is a dead giveaway that you’re just regurgitating childlike mythology, kn the level of “Hamas hates Jews”.
And your defense is: nuh uh/Whataboutism.
Oh no, this is not a defense. History has shown that the actions of the Soviet union need very little defending. This is an attack on your evangelical-level incuriosity and refusal to engage with anything that challenges your mythology.
At no point did I defend capitalism
You did. You do. You pretend to oppose everyone while uncritically swallowing the most ridiculous capitalist propaganda about the people they fear. In 70 years there will be another version of you talking about Mandani’s communist genocide of new yorkers.
Stalin was a monster. And that’s an indisputable fact.
This is you wishcasting. You wish for it to be an indisputable fact, because you’ve built so much of your identity around it but fundamentally lack the knowledge to back it up. That’s why you fall back on religious truisms. In the end, your only defense for your willful ignorance is “it is known”: the chorus of the scared and incurious throughout history.
davelI said Stalin was a monster. And that’s an indisputable fact.
Hell yeah dude, you’re 12
This is a good post! 🎉
I see someone hasn’t done the reading.
Start with an easy one, work your way up to the 19th century theory.
Source: Welsh Underground Network share.google/hhOibo9wTsGbvooLi
What part of this book which both confirms and agrees there were many politically motivated murders/imprisonments (even if it argues they were fewer than other sources claim) makes Stalin not a monster? It’s arguing over the scale of the bad shit he did, not whether he did it or not. Holy shit.
Stalin is not a monster because monsters aren’t real.
It’s arguing over the scale of the bad shit he did, not whether he did it or not.
The scale of bad shit he did you got from lifelong exposure to anti-communist propaganda. This misinformation isn’t neutral. It has a clear goal, and billions of dollars behind it over the last 100+ years, because the capitalist class fears nothing more than communism, because to date it’s been the only successful alternative to capitalism.
Your own source said he murdered a ton of people. That’s a bad person, regardless of the economic system the country they lead used. Why is that such a hard thing to grasp?
If you want to promote communism, don’t use a goddamn mass murderer to market it.
Your own source said he murdered a ton of people.
I didn’t provide any sources.
If you want to promote communism, don’t use a goddamn mass murderer to market it.
Killing bad people doesn’t undo killing good people. This isn’t the argument you think it is.
Hitler killed Hitler, didn’t undo all the bad he did. And wasn’t he a capitalist? Stalin wasn’t a good person just because Hitler stabbed his own ally in the back, and the ussr started killing their former allies . Or are we pretending Stalin hadn’t allied with the nazis in the beginning of the war, here?
Look man, I’m gonna tell you something you’re probably gonna write off as Bad Guy Villain dialogue:
Good People and Bad People don’t exist in real life. They exist in movies and comic books written by people who grew up in societies less than a century out of the domination of various religions. These are magical, religious ideas about the nature of reality you’ve unquestionably accepted because that’s what was in the entertainment you grew up on, same as the rest of us. But it’s not real life. In real life, there’s just People.
People are animals who seek comfort and propserity by making decisions within a predetermined range of possibilities, and that’s it. No angels, no demons, no omnipoten god watching in judgement. The terms these religions use have no scientific wight or meaning, and Marxism is scientific. We are concerned with what can be observed and measured. Good and Evil don’t mean shit when you’re talking about observable reality, any more than Karma or Sin or any of the other mystical ways in which people have tried to make sense of the world in the past. Your way of analyzing reality and human beings is fundamentally mystical, hypocritical and disconnected from reality.
There is no person on earth who couldn’t be classified as a “bad person”. It’s less than meaningless: it actually impairs understanding and paralyzes decision making, because there is no “Good” choice. All the hallowed saints of liberal civic religion were “Bad” people. MLK cheated on his wife. Ghandi was a fucking creep to his niece. Lincoln committed indigenous genocide. But they are venerated anyway because, among other things, they were effective at advancing the interests of those who are now powerful enough to culturally mandate their veneration. That’s it. That’s the entire calculus behind who you hold in esteem and who you hold in contempt. You like who you were told to like, and you hate who you were told to hate, without ever really considering why. If you were born in Soviet Russia, you would have the exact opposite opinion, as millions of Russians did and still do. The difference would be that approval of Stalin is much, much easier to make an evidence-based case for than mystical condemnation.
It’s like how liberals think that communist theory has some magical eldritch power that will instantly turn you into a communist if you read and understand it. It doesn’t. It just presents a well-reasoned case, grounded in observable reality, for the abolition of the world-drstroying system of omni-exploitation we all suffer under. It starts with facts and works it’s way towards a conclusion, rather than starting from a conclusion and working it’s way backwards with carefully curated facts. And to a liberal, this might as well be magic. That’s why you have all these cute little phrases like whataboutism that in practice simply mean “I refuse to consider what you are saying for longer than it takes to dismiss out of hand with a gesture at some social rule built just for this purpose.”
Your entire worldview has been constructed by bourgeois high priests not for the function of understanding the world, but crippling your ability to understand anything. This is Idealism: the belief that there are eternal, ironclad categories that reality comports itself to. This is wrong: reality comports itself however it wants, and we invent the categories after the fact. The categories of Good and Bad people are as invented as the categories of Good and Bad music. People and music simply are, determined by their relationship with the world around them.
Uh, nah. Real life has plenty of awful people-many are way more worthy of that descriptor than others. What a bizarre worldview you have.
Damn, you got so destroyed that was the only response you could manage?
Or are we pretending Stalin hadn’t allied with the nazis in the beginning of the war, here?
Westerners truly are the most propagandized people on the planet
Which of those other countries co-invaded a neighbor with the Nazis? Did you think that was some kind of gotcha?
QinShiHuangsShlongCo-invaded is a strange way to say reclaimed Ukrainian and Lithuanian land after the Polish government fell.
Also Poland and the UK are almost entirely to blame for the fall of Czechoslovakia.
Reclaimed is a weird way to say : took land that hadn’t been theirs away from the people living there.
“After the Polish government fell” is a weird way to say, they invaded and helped destroy the government.
Another Whatabout? No one here praised the UK.
Lol. You literally asked a question and then accuse the answer of being “whatabout”. You absolute idiot
Reclaimed is a weird way to say : took land that hadn’t been theirs away from the people living there.
Reclaimed is precise. Poland seized Western Ukraine, Western Belarus, and Vilnius in 1921 while those nations were fighting for survival. The people there weren’t Polish, they were Ukrainian, Belarusian, Lithuanian. The Soviet Union didn’t “take from people living there”; it ended Polish occupation and reunited those populations with their Soviet republics.
“After the Polish government fell” is a weird way to say, they invaded and helped destroy the government.
No, you’re confused. The Polish state collapsed under the German blitz. The government fled to Romania on September 17 then the USSR crossed the border. The Red Army moved into a power vacuum to secure the border and protect Ukrainian/Belarusian civilians from the advancing Wehrmacht. They didn’t “help destroy” a government that had already abandoned its people.
Another Whatabout? No one here praised the UK.
The UK is literally in the image you’re replying to and asking about. Are you illiterate? Idiot. But what’s to be expected of someone who thinks Hitler was elected.
Poland
The context clues in my statement show that’s clearly not remotely close to what I said. Fuck, this community is full of the illiterate.
Abraham Lincoln also “murdered his own people”,
The differences are
The Soviet Union was never a safe haven
for fascists and other right-wing extremists,
so no slave owners fled over there to claim
that Lincoln “destroyed their family business forever”.
The Soviet Union never paraded US Afro-nationalists
that would make claim that since they’re oppressed,
that the lack of population growth of Afro-Americans
compared to Euro-Americans,
should be counted of dead Afro-nationalist victims at the hands
of Abraham Lincoln and other US presidents.
Like every US president,
Abraham Lincoln oppressed the indigenous people of the US,
which I will count as ‘own people’ and that equals at least 300 million people,
because that’s what the population would have been if they hadn’t been viciously
and brutally murdered at the hands of the Usonians during US history.
Hell yeah dude, you’re 12!
Just quoting the meme, bruh. Tell it to your tankie friend.
☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆I love how ignorant chuds are always attracted to these threads like moths to a flame.
It’s incredible to me you’re being downvoted. He ordered the execution of thousands of political opponents, and put millions into forced labor camps.
These people are as brainwashed as MAGAts, it’s shameful that leftists can become this stupid.
Um… How exactly is the execution of “thousands” of Nazis and monarchists and forcing them to shovel snow something bad that only “brainwashed” people would defend? I think you are confused here
Oh yeah all 2-3 million people involved in Dekulakization were Nazis or monarchists.
They weren’t. They were peasants and regular people like you and me.
You’re delusional, and anyone here who thinks like you is also delusional. You believe that because the US has a capitalist dictator that the solution is a Communist dictator, but it’s not.
Since how are rich people “peasants”? Aren’t you contradicting yourself here? That’s pretty delusional right?
Is there “communist dictator” in the room with us?
I am once again pointing impatiently to the second sentence of the 1956 internal CIA memo entitled “Comments on the change in Soviet leadership”, which says, verbatim:
The western idea of a dictator within the communist setup is exaggerated. Misunderstandings on that subject are caused by lack of comprehension of the real nature and organization of the communist power structure.
The arrogance it takes to assume what people who have studied more than you think when you yourself are operating in complete ignorance of the facts. Perfectly liberal of you.
Cowbee [he/they]Kulaks were a class of bourgeois farmers that employed slave-like labor. Dekulakization was the process of ending that slave-like mode of production. I don’t imagine you refer to the American Civil War as “Lincoln murdering millions of his own people,” do you? Stalin was elected, and did not have absolute power. The socialist system in the USSR required collective decision making, and could not have been run or dominated by a single person, no matter how influential said person may be.
Arcanepotato“REEEEEEEEEE”
What does this mean?