ArtemisMar 20

When you get taught about scary, scary communism as a kid, they make it sound as though it means you couldn't even own your teddy bear.

No one explains (likely because they themselves believed the same when they were taught) the difference between your teddy bear & a factory.

Show threadArtemis

Maybe people could enjoy their own personal objects WITHOUT us having to allow some people to hoard resources. Maybe those two things really aren't the same type of thing. Maybe the fact we call them both "property" obscures their differences.

We can share the resources in common for the common good AND you can have your very own teddy bear that is just yours. I promise.

Mar 20 at 12:00pmWeb
Show threadArtemisMar 20
We've got people refusing the offer of a better world where they don't have to struggle just to keep a roof over their head because they DON'T know the difference between a teddy bear & a factory, between personal possessions & capital.
Show threadArtemisMar 20
"No! You can't take that! That's my emotional support oil refinery!"
Show threadxfox🦊Mar 20
@artemis me when the biters attack my factory in Factorio
Show threadJWarnerMar 20
@artemis I'm sure that somebody has proposed the rental stuffed Bear market. ARR for stakeholders means you don't own your teddy bear either.
Show threadJacquelineMar 20

@artemis the ownership of capital is distinct from personal possessions.

The critique of capitalism criticizes capital.

Communism is not "sharing everything", communism is about the expropriation of the capital of the ruling class

Show threadJacquelineMar 20

@artemis

I don't want your toothbrush.
I want the landlord class to no longer exist.

Show threadTzimisce FleshMar 20
@burnoutqueen @artemis I would say I do want your toothbrush for weird reasons, but I'm not a toothbrush fetishist.
Show threadNeo EhproqueMar 24
@flesh @artemis @burnoutqueen I want my landlord toothbrush, so I can use it to clean mold from the corners, then give it back and then make sure he brushes very well
Show threadЯ⊛ḶḶ model ☭Mar 20

@burnoutqueen @artemis

i don't want your toothbrush in any case. but, yeah, death to the ruling class.

Show threadTzimisce FleshMar 20
@artemis Yeah, "use the same word for two different adjacent things" is an absolute blight for discourse.
Show threadTzimisce FleshMar 20
@artemis Tangentially related, but see also: Terms like "criminal" and "terrorist" being so pushed in the parlance that people's go-to insult for fascists becomes "people who oppose the state" or shit like that.
Show threadTzimisce FleshMar 20
@artemis If I hear one more lib calling the Confederates "traitors"...
Show threadArtemisMar 20
@flesh
Yeah, exactly. Like THAT'S the problem.
Show threadTzimisce FleshMar 20
@artemis You can say you don't like intellectual property and people will go "so you support lying about authorship?".
Show threadqwazixMar 20

@flesh @artemis I've actually had this exact response, by a professor no less.

Well dude nobody doubts it's Homer that authored the Odyssey but I can do whatever I like with Ulysses, which part of this is confusing you?

Show threadLaurent BercotMar 20

@flesh @artemis it happens all the time. And it's impossible to tell if it's done in bad faith or out of pure ignorance, which makes attempts to educate a bad strategy because it can be used by bad actors to waste your time and energy.

I hate this timeline.

Show threadSobri | Zoe (she/her)Mar 20
@flesh @artemis we can protect authorship claims pretty fucking easily with timestamps and GPG key signatures.
Show threadTzimisce FleshMar 20
@cutesobri @artemis The relevant point is that "getting to exploit the idea monetarily with exclusive rights to its reproduction" and "people acknowledging you came up with it" are often treated as synonymous concepts falling under the same term.
Show threadd@nny disc@ mc²Mar 20
@flesh @artemis @cutesobri astral is a startup recently acquired by openai. their entire business model is predicated on work i did very publicly in 2020 for pip. multiple PEPs from their henchman directly erase my work to justify protocols that suck. this goes further than erasure. i then developed several techniques for zip files in rust. they use but do not cite my work there either and managed to introduce a security vulnerability because they can't read the spec.
Show threadd@nny disc@ mc²Mar 20
@flesh @artemis @cutesobri i have never once attempted to sell my code for monetary gain. it is trivial for this company which does sell code for money to act like they invented it while fucking it up. the lack of acknowledgement is central to this. gpg is so far removed from being relevant to anything at all here. not acknowledging credit is a form of wage theft, and copyright is a labor protection. i interviewed for this company before they started using my work without the safety checks.
Show threadd@nny disc@ mc²Mar 20
@flesh @artemis @cutesobri it's cool if you think citing sources is just a nice thing to do but i spent years on this and have been unable to find employment during and since then while this startup has billions of dollars from investors who believed they were funding engineering work. i don't want a fucking litigation path i want people to cite me when they profit off my work and when they fuck it up i want users to know they made a choice to introduce a security vulnerability. there is no way i can ensure that without a defensive patent because copyright is completely insufficient. patents are evil and corporations are evil and speaking in generalities elides the evil
Show threadd@nny disc@ mc²Mar 20
@flesh @artemis @cutesobri corporate exploitation has made me evil. i think it's ridiculous to say the word "exploit" like an exclusive license is the only way exploitation occurs
Show threadTzimisce FleshMar 20
@hipsterelectron @artemis @cutesobri Yeah, nah, for every worker that somehow manages to use copyright to defend themselves from corporate exploitation, there are countless who have their work become the exclusive property of the company and multiple companies keeping strangleholds over their fields with their IPs.
Treating ideas as property is not actually helpful in the fight against the owning class.
Show threadMorgan ⚧️Mar 20
@flesh @artemis @cutesobri yeah... if we had some form of copyright that could only apply to the laborers who made the thing, I'd me more inclined to agree that it's good for labor protection. As it is, @hipsterelectron did the company not simply steal your work and then copyright it somehow? Don't they currently "own" the IP? Because that's the pattern I keep seeing over and over again, a worker has an idea or does a thing and then IP laws let a corporation profit off their work but not them
Show threadd@nny disc@ mc²Mar 20

@raphaelmorgan @flesh @artemis @cutesobri copyright applies this way in germany. i did not publish the work under license because (1) i didn't think anyone would care because nobody gives a shit about packaging unless they can coerce people with it (2) the project i contributed it to uses a permissive license which i accepted because i didn't expect anyone would seriously try to profit without citing me.

i also spent quite some time with other tool developers, all of whom have been extremely helpful and contributed back improvements to the work. this was an outsider who read my design discussion and reimplemented it because while i assumed "many public posts + design documents in public forum + conference talk" means "nobody would seriously claim credit" it actually means "copyright protections cannot be claimed for the work". this disincentivizes working in the open or indeed working at all

Show threadd@nny disc@ mc²Mar 20
@raphaelmorgan the person you boosted with the purple orb avvy just blocked me btw
Show threadMorgan ⚧️Mar 20
@hipsterelectron ah darn
Here I thought this was a "we all want the same thing and are discussing the best ways to go about it"
Show threadd@nny disc@ mc²Mar 20
@raphaelmorgan i engaged because i believe this to be true
Show threadSobri | Zoe (she/her)Mar 20

@hipsterelectron @raphaelmorgan @flesh @artemis

your mad you signed away your rights
that sucks

Show threadSobri | Zoe (she/her)Mar 20
@hipsterelectron @raphaelmorgan @flesh @artemis
CC BY-NC-SA 4.0 is less permissive
Show threadd@nny disc@ mc²Mar 20
@flesh @artemis @cutesobri yes that's why copyright shouldn't be transferable. "ideas as property" makes two claims first that because the VC class calls it intellectual property that anyone else should use that term two that copyright is about "ideas". patents are evil because they are about ideas and not labor. copyright does not cover "ideas"
Show threadd@nny disc@ mc²Mar 20
@flesh @artemis @cutesobri "for every worker" is a strange comparison to make when your first clause is about workers who own their copyright and the second is about workers who don't. copyright is not the thing that keeps the second group under control, it's the lack thereof, which is why transferring copyright should not be legal as a contract provision.
Show threadd@nny disc@ mc²Mar 20
@flesh @artemis @cutesobri i very specifically said copyright didn't and wouldn't help because i wasn't trying to debate this but hoping that it could be acknowledged that exploitation occurs regardless of copyright and labor is a more general framing. i think it's super fucking cool how any concrete claims are immaterial in the face of abstract generalities
Show threadd@nny disc@ mc²Mar 20
@flesh @artemis @cutesobri do corporations keep strangleholds over "fields" with copyright? because they do do that with patents, which are evil because they cover "ideas". microsoft's copyrights are immaterial because i would never allow their code into my repos but they filed a patent for jarek duda's ANS compression technique because the USPTO is scum. i am implementing it regardless because i desperately want an excuse to get sued by microsoft. there's a distinction to make here which is not only visible but directly actionable
Show threadSobri | Zoe (she/her)Mar 20

@hipsterelectron @flesh @artemis

The copy in copyright is sharing. I believe everyone should be able to access information right now copyright is baring folks from accessing most science due to journals locking down copyrights this slows progress. The money men will do whatever to make more money so they don't do attribution that sucks it needs a lot of reform.

Show threadMcPoopsMar 20
@flesh @artemis it's very much intentional too. There is no question that private property doesn't mean personal property in economics and the ruling class scaremongering people against communism know that, and it's so very blatant when they also patronizingly use economic concepts to insist their privilege is just or necessary. But they always conveniently leave out anything beyond basic "supply and demand" slogans like externalities or the fact that there are several schools of thought.
Show threadTzimisce FleshMar 20
@McPoops @artemis Not even the only case where words are conveniently defined in a way that supports the power structure.
Show threadMorgan ⚧️Mar 20
@flesh @artemis @McPoops yup, some other examples of words with multiple meanings/uses whose obfuscation conveniently supports the power structure:
- respect (humanity/authority)
- income (wages/ROI)
- abuse (person/drug)
- pedophile (thought criminal/child molestor)
- incest (kink/CSA)
- groomer (predator/queer person)
- narcissist (mentally ill/supremacist)
- anti-Semitism (bigotry/anti-colonialism)
- immigrant (moved here/Indigenous)
I'm sure I'm forgetting a lot more!
Show threadTzimisce FleshMar 20
@raphaelmorgan @artemis @McPoops I feel like some of those examples are more ingrained than others, but thanks for the list.
Show threadMorgan ⚧️Mar 20
@flesh of course. There are so many words like this, all at different levels. I hope the new uses of groomer and anti-Semitism haven't fully ingratiated into our language yet, but I still included them because I hear the incorrect usages all the time, these days more than the actual meanings :/
Then terms like "abuse" or "respect" are fully ingrained in their double meanings
Show threadNo soy MarioMar 20

@artemis you very very probably know this, but maybe someone is reading along that doesn't have the concepts.

There's a stark difference between what is yours because you use it for your comfort, "personal property", your teddybear. Versus those things you own, that allow you to extract value of other peoples labour, "private property", owning the factory where others work.

These simple concepts are constantly conflated to muddy any discussions about the (re-)organisation of society.

Show threadArtemisMar 20
@marijn
Appreciate the addition. I wasn't gonna go in depth on this thread, so it's helpful.
Show threadMx. Eddie RMar 20
@artemis
I've seen it explained as the distinction between "personal property", your toothbrush and teddy bear and home, versus "private property", your golf course and forest and grocery store chain, etc.