Mastodawn

Jordan Petridis 3d ago

@atoponce Being able to store the birthday of the user is useful metadata for the system to have in general. This is something that is needed to have regardless of any regulations. There are already other PII stored. Additionally there isn't any "Verification" mechanism in the PR you linked or proposed at all.

Jesus Christ read before spreading further misinformation. You also clearly haven't read the California legislation you are so worried about.

Travis E. Jones 3d ago

@alatiera @atoponce

Honest question from a non-programmer (although I did learn BASIC in high school and Pascal in college), how would the age of the user be useful metadata for the operating system? The reason I ask is that I view the OS as serving my interests as a user, and I can't think of a way I would benefit from having my birthdate stored by systemd. Thanks!

Aaron Toponce ⚛️

@travisejones @alatiera It's likely in place so future software that requires a birthday from the system can retrieve it.

For example, some mature video game with adult elements could ask systemd for the birthday before letting the user play the game.

AFAIK, there are no hooks in place that verify that the supplied birth date matches their birth certificate, government issued ID, etc. So there's nothing stopping you from lying about your age to get around the video game rating.

Aaron Toponce ⚛️

@travisejones @alatiera There could be some telemetry risks however. Google Chrome, Microsoft Teams, Spotify, etc., and other desktop or server apps could report the age back to their infrastructure. Time will tell. I don't think that's unfounded paranoia however.

@atoponce @travisejones @alatiera "letting the user".
Right there is the entire fucking problem. I bought the machine. I am the owner. There is no "let" in this situation. There is only "fuck you, computer does whatever the fuck I tell it to do!". Anyone sticking "let" in to my computer can go fuck all the way off!

ferricoxide 3d ago

@hellomiakoda @atoponce @travisejones @alatiera

You're missing the overarching trend of "you will own nothing" that our techbroligarchy overlords are trying to shove down everyone's throats (in the guise of "won't somebody think of the children!").

@ferricoxide @atoponce @alatiera @travisejones I'm not missing it, I'm actively resisting it. That's why I have Linux computers in the first place.

ferricoxide 3d ago

@hellomiakoda @atoponce @alatiera @travisejones

Between finding time/energy to do taxes, upgrade my VPS's OS I haven't had time to even think about dealing with re-imaging my laptop to a Linux distro.

…though, really, I'd probably rather re-image it to a hypervisor and then just run a Linux VM for personal stuff and Windows for work stuff.

@hellomiakoda also, fuck that term "user".
@atoponce @alatiera

Earthshine 3d ago

@requiem @hellomiakoda @atoponce @alatiera genuinely curious what other term(s) you would prefer in this context.

@hellomiakoda @atoponce @alatiera

@earthshine I like a more personal term, that reflects how the thing is being worked with, so it's very context-specific.

Earthshine 3d ago

@requiem @hellomiakoda @atoponce @alatiera I mean in the context of the person using software/OS anyway...

@hellomiakoda @atoponce @alatiera

@earthshine I think if you're talking to a person about something you should know enough about what they are doing to refer to them in a more personal way.

I understand that this might sound crazy 😇

@hellomiakoda @atoponce @alatiera

@earthshine for example, if I'm talking about a piece of software for editing film, I'd use "filmmaker"; if it's a word processor I'd use "author", etc.

@earthshine @hellomiakoda @atoponce @alatiera

Thomas 3d ago

@requiem if it's Emacs or vi, "neckbeard"

hyratel 2d ago

@requiem poweruser. don't overthink it

@requiem @atoponce @alatiera "User" is whomever I let use my computer. I, on the other hand, am sudo. I am the computer's owner, and it shall bow before me, for I am it's god. That is how I feel about my machines with very few exceptions.

zooopnir 3d ago

@hellomiakoda @requiem @atoponce @alatiera
That makes sense. Software companies consider themselves the software's owner, and expect the users of their software to bow before them.

🇺🇦 haxadecimal 🚫👑2d ago

@hellomiakoda @requiem @atoponce @alatiera
You must not be running Windows or MacOS on your computer.

i mean, you can say this about your car too, but you still have to share the road with other people

not to defend age verification, that can fuck right off. but thats kind of my point, like, i dont want my computer to be an isolated fortress, i want to use it to communicate and connect socially, and be able to find meaningful consensus with my community and society about a reasonable way to behave in that context, not having shit like this shoved down our throats by states and corpos

2d ago

@aloe @requiem @atoponce @alatiera Yes. That does not negate my point at all. I take a knife out of my kitchen drawer, I can cook you a nice meal with it, or I could stab you. Either way, the knife doesn't stop me or demand I verify anything. Not sure what sharing space with others have has to do with it. Who gets hurt and what consequences I face are entirely dependant on what I do with my things.

well sure but roads have things like speed limits and traffic lights, most consumer passenger cars have their speed artificially capped below what the engine is capable of i think. im just saying i think an online computer will always have some socially imposed limitations, it's just a matter of who and how is constructing and implementing them

like, there are social consequences if you do a murder with the knife. i think separating that from "limiting the capabilities of the tool" is mostly academic/semantic for this conversation. you could just rip this field out of your local systemd or never update past this version if your computer wasnt going online

the more i think about it tho i probably am being a little more contrarian than i want here. like, i see what you're saying, im definitely troubled by design trends that try to limit peoples autonomy like this, be it in operating systems that are unnecessarily hard to modify or like, car parts that are unnecessarily hard to repair. it's just a slightly different ideal where We have absolute power over Our thing as opposed to Me having absolute power over My thing

2d ago

@aloe @requiem @atoponce @alatiera This is the mentality that allows police states to happen. "You could just...". Yes, and I could also just hide my private things under the floor boards before they arrive to ransack my home. Look at smart phones. How many "you could just" was that thing built on?! It literally listens to your in person conversations via the mic. Well, "you could just" keep your phone in the other room.

im not defending this particular decision ! it's all good though i have no ill will, thanks for the discussion

@aloe @requiem @atoponce @alatiera You do realize the goals are A) make sure you never escape data collection and advertising, and B) prevent you from freely discussing our dictator(s), especially with large numbers of people... Right? Or are you oblivious to this?

"You could just" comply with fascism and not get jailed.

@aloe @requiem @atoponce @alatiera Before you claim I'm being hyperbolic or whatever...
Remember that horrid people never announce they are horrible. They spend a long time convincing you to accept little things that make it easier for them to do horrible things. They thrive on "you could just".

aloe 1d ago

i guess i wasnt clear enough before but im done with this convo :) youre arguing with stuff i didnt say and it has moved past the point of good faith and productivity, again tho no worries its tough doing this stuff on socmed, all the best to you

@aloe @requiem @atoponce @alatiera
"You could just" not update... till it's too outdated to use, or your PC broke and needs a reinstall or replacement, or someone not tech saavy enough needs to speak online, or you need to use a computer you're not in charge of, or updates become mandatory and automatic.

That's the important part. Bad law isn't alone. "You could just"... till the next bad law builds off that one and you can no longer "just".

@aloe @requiem @atoponce @alatiera What happens when a kid is being abused, but the computer or phone won't let them look up info about getting help and won't let them post about it because the computer knows they are 12, and sex and social media are no-nos?

@aloe @requiem @atoponce @alatiera Which, btw, is one reason why I'm also against a system hard banning by word instead of a human moderator handling it with reason and context.

@aloe @requiem @atoponce @alatiera Imagine if long ago someone had made knives that didn't allow you to cut humans, and demanded all knives be made that way. Who wouldn't want to protect kids from getting stabbed and sliced? You like kids, right?
...and thus no one invented surgery.

Except... Disallowing you to use your computer freely isn't unintended consequences. Silencing dissent on a communication network is part of the goal.

multioculate 2d ago

@hellomiakoda This is exactly it. I am the operator with my pocket calculator. About the most disagreement I am willing to tolerate from my computer is a 4 keystroke detour to confirm something potentially destructive

Handler Skyler 2d ago

@requiem @hellomiakoda @atoponce @alatiera In fairness it's from when Computers were massive and had multiple Users using it. PCs that is Personal Computers continued using the term because they were expensive and a family would all use it. Now however it's like three and a quarter floppy save icon

60sRefugee 3d ago

@hellomiakoda @atoponce @travisejones @alatiera Your computer? You mean their ad display machine?

Stevez 2d ago

@60sRefugee @hellomiakoda @atoponce @travisejones @alatiera On Linux? No, not really... 😏

2d ago

@60sRefugee @atoponce @travisejones @alatiera BA HAHAHAHA! No. There's no ad display here. I don't run Windows.

Urzl 3d ago

@atoponce @travisejones @alatiera Why should I have to lie or enter anything at all? Video game ratings aren't legal restrictions, that's a convenience for parents.

This shouldn't exist and the legislators know it's a gift to the techbros.

Luke T. Shumaker 20h ago

@gooba42 "Why should I have to lie or enter anything at all?"

In the specific context of the systemd change: You don't. It's an optional field. In a JSON blob that can already contain user defined fields, they just added a schema that if there's a "birthDate" field, it should be a "YYYY-MM-DD" string.

In the broader context of other PRs that Dylan Taylor is submitting, such as to the Gnome user-creation utility, which make it a mandatory field in the GUI: damn right you shouldn't have to

ferricoxide 3d ago

@atoponce @travisejones @alatiera

The problem with all of these "age gates" — and the attempts to provide a solution to poorly-considered legislation — is that they're more for spyware than practical reasons. Unless there's also a method for a parent/guardian to inform a gated offering, "I don't care what the state thinks, I know my ward and they're mature enough for this material".

We're nerfing the world to the detriment of precocious individuals, mostly to benefit corporations and busy-bodies.

Alexander The 1st 3d ago

@atoponce @travisejones @alatiera There is a fatal flaw to this "Future software that requires a birthday from the system can retrieve it.", and it's that computers can be shared.

So just because I provided my birth certificate and birth date to the system (Even if we presume it does get checked), nothing prevents my niece or nephew from logging onto my computer and getting access to the same content I can, because now, as far as the computer is concerned, I am authenticated.

Alexander The 1st 3d ago

@atoponce @travisejones @alatiera (Replace me with my sister and/or brother-in-law, and you've got the more plausible outcome for the same situation, but the point stands either way.)

Stevez 2d ago

@AT1ST @atoponce @travisejones @alatiera Walit - the age definition is not implemented as per accout feature? That would be totally silly on a multiuser os... 🤔

Alexander The 1st 2d ago

@theron29 @atoponce @travisejones @alatiera I think it is per-account, but...what prevents some kid from learning their parents' login credentials? Or for them to not have an account at a young age, and interact with it through their parents' accounts? (See, for example, my niece learning the Pin code on her parents' iPad, hypothetically.).

Though there's also this in the document:

"birthDate is excluded from user_record_self_modifiable_fields(), so only
administrators can set or change it via homectl. The field remains in the
regular (non-privileged) JSON section, keeping it readable by the user and
applications (e.g. xdg-desktop-portal)."

So cool - `sudo homectl birthDate 1901-01-01`, and done. :p

Stevez 2d ago

@AT1ST @atoponce @travisejones @alatiera "what prevents some kid from learning their parents' login credentials?"

1. The parent, or a relative of course! It is, and must be, their responsibility, and nobody elses...

2. Something similar - a parental mode - works in Android world for years... Limitting child's access to apps, timed app or consumption - it iss all there for years, and works without issues... nobody gives a fart... Why is this possibility on Linux such a bi issue suddenly? 🤔

Alexander The 1st 2d ago

@theron29 @atoponce @travisejones @alatiera It's not just a big issue on Linux - it's an issue for Windows and MacOS too.

The big issue is that we're forcing people to provide additional PII data to the OS...for something that has a *dead easy* workaround. Instead of just recognizing that previous attempts to enforce age gating have been routinely found to have implementation gaps.

And as for 1.) and 2.), that presumes the parent has more technical knowledge of their system than the kid does; that is usually not the case.