Mastodawn

Darren Moffat 6d ago

I suspect most people outside of the UK won't have heard about the post office scandal, but it seems highly relevant to learn about now (given *waves* this):

For over 15 years, the software post offices in the UK had to use contained severe bugs, particular in accounting, that everyone at Fujitsu/horizon and the post blissfully ignored. Over 900 (!!!) postmasters were sentenced for alleged theft and fraud, some went to jail, some committed suicide. All because the software was shit and everyone who could do something about it didn't care and swept it under the rug.

Everything, including how it was uncovered, about this seems bizarre and Kafkaesque, but we better prepare for it to happen more often.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Post_Office_scandal

https://types.pl/@pigworker/116211919028571818

British Post Office scandal - Wikipedia

@rradczewski This is horrific, I remember being aware of it but not the extent of damage and lives destroyed.

Third spruce tree on the left Mar 11

@deech @rradczewski There's a miniseries with some big name UK actors in it that was quite engrossing. Toby Jones as Mr. Bates vs. The Post Office - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr_Bates_vs_The_Post_Office

Mr Bates vs The Post Office - Wikipedia

@IanAMartin HAS MOVED!Mar 11

@tezoatlipoca @deech @rradczewski This ran on PBS’ “Masterpiece Theatre” programme and is still available to stream on the PBS Passport app. Also available is the companion documentary speaking to the real people involved in the event. Both are highly recommended. What’s most interesting is the willful coverup by those in charge who knew of the cost to people’s lives and the lack of benefit to the Post Office other than avoiding damage to their reputation. Disgraceful.

🌻 Welcome Back 🌻Mar 12

@IanAMartin @tezoatlipoca @deech @rradczewski
⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️ for both.
The actors were very good at dramatizing the ordeal. It was nice to follow up with the interviews of the real people who had their lives terribly impacted.

Black Chic with the Red Truck Mar 12

@IanAMartin @tezoatlipoca @deech @rradczewski
Oh this was good. I just saw a rerun episode on pbs yesterday. They treated those people horribly.

Ronny Lam Mar 12

@tezoatlipoca @deech @rradczewski recommended!

Angela Scholder Mar 15

@ronnylam @tezoatlipoca @deech @rradczewski Absolutely recommended.

Ivo Bathke 6d ago

@tezoatlipoca @deech @rradczewski Yep, on the continent this was streamed on ARTE last year. I enjoy most of UK style series, as a Software Developer this one in particular.

Norman Wilson 6d ago

@tezoatlipoca @deech @rradczewski Yes! Had the DVDs out of the library here in Canada a couple of years ago. As decades-experimenced computer programmers and sysadmins, my wife and I found the story entirely believable.

sleepingexplorer Mar 11

@deech @rradczewski there's also a podcast series about it from radio 4 https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/series/m000jf7j

BBC Sounds - The Great Post Office Trial - Available Episodes

Listen to the latest episodes of The Great Post Office Trial on BBC Sounds.

BBC

Pieter Kuiper 🌍🇳🇱Mar 11

@rradczewski
It is a bit like the "toeslagenaffaire" in the Netherlands.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_childcare_benefits_scandal

Dutch childcare benefits scandal - Wikipedia

Raimo (he/him)Mar 11

@pietkuip how so?

Pieter Kuiper 🌍🇳🇱Mar 12

@rradczewski
The belief in "the computer". The way people's entire lives and families were destroyed. The way all signs were disregarded at all levels, also by the judiciary.

And finally, parliamentary inquests.

(I am not deeply knowledgeable about either scandal. But I keep warning Swedes that want more hunting after fraud in social benefits, also by coupling different computer systems, algorithms etc.)

sleepingexplorer Mar 11

@pietkuip @rradczewski this is also bad, but it is not similar to the Post Office Horizon case. Not remotely.

tuban_muzuru Mar 11

Happens constantly in government contracting. Happened to me.

Three way message conversion / translation. Two of the messages had seven elements, one had five. Given this assignment, I made a little diagram showing the two missing elements.

I was fired. It was easier to fire the contractor.

Alun Jones Mar 11

@rradczewski they had to hire more lawyers, and not once did they stop to ask the question "what is the likely cause of this (apparent) rise in theft across the board?"

Raimo (he/him)Mar 11

@ftp_alun I can imagine people getting very excited that their fraud detection is getting better. That, and the inquiries also seem to suggest a good amount of racism and prejudice against postmasters.

(((Klefstadmyr)))6d ago

@rradczewski @ftp_alun Didn't the investigators get a bonus for every conviction?

bashtoni Mar 11

@rradczewski the particularly crazy thing is how well known the software defects were. Computer Weekly were writing about it in 2008, and Private Eye shortly after.
It was common knowledge enough to be a topic of small talk in the IT industry in the UK, but there were still hundreds of convictions after these reports.

MattChippytea Mar 12

@bashtoni @rradczewski it’s been said, but can’t be repeated enough that Computer Weekly did excellent journalism on this. They didn’t let it go. Private eye too.

Piggleston Pecanpants Mar 11

@rradczewski Vennells should have served prison time for that fiasco. Hundreds of subpostmasters and others were imprisoned but she gets to continue life as usual.

Crystal_Fish_Caves Mar 12

@rradczewski I saw a pbs docudrama recently it was just amazing what they did to people when it was their system all along. Horrifying.

1337 $#!+ I did that Mar 12

@rradczewski yes I have heard of this, on a pod I think. (San Diego CA USA.) Disgusting and, uh, well I already said where I am so... It made me sad leave it there ...

Emilie Nguyen Van Yen Mar 12

@stalbaum @rradczewski
The series Mr Bates vs the post office tells this story beautifully

David Penington Mar 12

@rradczewski Horrifying that lawyers managed to bill 146 million pounds over 3 years for this, 46 million for the plaintiffs, forcing the plaintiffs to settle & give almost 80% of the settlement to the lawyers & funders. Law is vastly too expensive for justice in the UK & Australia.

Reinald Kirchner Mar 12

@rradczewski I think this is an interesting example, how a "we don't do software for nuclear power plants" to play down on sloppy programming can escalate to legal issues and destroy lives.

THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR SLOPPY SOFTWARE DEVELOPEMENT. NEVER. however trivial your field of work might feel.

FallsMom 🌻Mar 12

Watched it here in US on PBS, found it as I watch for shows w/ Toby Jones. It's Orwellian, and certainly something similar can/will/may be happening here.

Sam Vines Mar 12

@rradczewski so much this! I just read a blog post advocating for no longer checking for bugs because AI can code review better than humans can and this was the very next thing I saw. This unhinged AI mania is going to hurt people

@rradczewski @aral Watch Mr Bates v The Post Office. ITV four part drama if you want to know more. The government is still dragging its heels over the compensations payments. 236 subpostmasters went to jail over the faulty Horizon software made by Fujitsu, over a 1000 prosecuted. 13 Suicides 10 attempts……

TheBuell Mar 12

Weird how no one has been jailed for causing this mess .

zemsgram 6d ago

@TheBuell This is exactly where AI is taking us. No one will take any responsibility for the errors created by AI and there will be no accountability.

Mark Hughes Mar 12

@rradczewski indeed, #GenAI / #LLMs and vibe coding are going to make this commonplace.

What shocked me was that as this unfolded it was obviously a fuck up somewhere. So many sub postmasters being prosecuted for stealing tens of thousands of pounds without any evidence of where that money went... and nobody thought hang on, really?

It was so obvious to me, but the system had no way to recognise and recover before it was obvious even to politicians.

Politicians: let's make the system worse.

Martin Seeger Mar 12

@rradczewski Outside UK but heard of it already while brewing.

Dave Muth Mar 12

@rradczewski DAMN! I had absolutely no idea!

Being thoroughly 'murican, most of the british news I see is about Royal Scandals.

I'd better finish reading that article. Then do it again. So many deaths. So much heartache.

BlackMinaFz8 Mar 12

@rradczewski omg that's horrible!

@iveyline Mar 13

@rradczewski It is a heart breaking story and those responsible have never been made to pay. The little guys who ran the post offices got shafted because big tech screwed up big time

@rradczewski Read an article about this ones (tech related). Quite baffling indeed.
Mind-blowing how they didn't take responsibility for the software flaws and destroyed human lives instead.

Angela Scholder Mar 15

@rradczewski And it's still dragging on.

Jon PENNYCOOK 6d ago

@rradczewski Private Eye worked to expose it for years https://www.private-eye.co.uk/special-reports/justice-lost-in-the-post

Special Report: Justice Lost In The Post

CONCEIVED in 1996 as one of the first private finance initiative (PFI) contracts, between the Post Office and the Benefits Agency on the one hand and computer company ICL on the other, the Horizon IT system had an unpromising start. It had been set up to create a swipe card system for payment of pensions and benefits from Post Office branch counters. But, as with most mega-IT projects of the time, it soon fell victim to over-ambition, management consultancy snake oil and the inability of a PFI contract to deliver a complex public service.

@rradczewski oof yeah, I can't remember whether it was an article, a documentary or a podcast I've seen about it...
But I remember that it did a good job of explaining the technical fuckup as well as showing the pain and suffering inflicted upon numerous families, some having lost family members to suicide over this.

(((Klefstadmyr)))6d ago

@rradczewski It was a program about it on Norwegian radio a couple of years ago. As a former programmer I'm horrified by the faith in "A Computer Can Do No Errors."

Robin Barton 6d ago

@rradczewski I am in Canada and I heard how the higherups abandoned all sense of right and wrong

Vick Forcella ™🌈🌳❄️☑️:verifi 6d ago

@rradczewski In the Netherlands we have something similar. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_childcare_benefits_scandal

Dutch childcare benefits scandal - Wikipedia

bassistance 5d ago

@rradczewski the show Mr Bates vs The Post Office is excellent. And infuriating 👏