My hunch: Consciousness starts as a system modeling the world. Selfhood arrives later, when the model turns inward and begins modeling the modeler. That's when the boundary sharpens: inside vs outside.
The "I" is not the source of awareness - it's the recursive moment when awareness places itself inside the picture.
Consciousness models the world.
Selfhood models the modeler.
Geist begins when modelers model each other.
@lankohr Interesting way to frame it. Id say the "I" isn't the opposite of awareness, it's a structure inside awareness.
The brain builds a self-model so the organism can navigate the world. Useful, but easy to mistake for the WHOLE of consciousness. That was Jung's point as well.
The real confusion begins when the model thinks it is the thing modeling.
In that sense the ego isn't evil or sinful, it's just a map that forgot it was a map. That forgetting is Demiurgic!
@lankohr RAW's "reality tunnel" idea actually fits pretty well with how I think about it. The brain builds models of reality, and the self is one of those models. Different psychologies just explore different ways the tunnel can widen or narrow.
I like Jung, but Miller and Wilson are closer to the neuroscience-meets-experience side of things.
@PrettyGnosticMaschine my intuition tends toward biology. Cells have stress response mechanisms. It suggests that even without consciousness there is a need to model inside and outside for survival. The stress response signaling molecules are the same as those associated with human emotions. Evolution doesn't invent new things, just reuses.
In biology the system for modeling the world may be the system of modeling self.
#affectiveneuroscience #neuroscience #somaticmarkerhypothesis
@atomicpacemaker interesting point. I like the way you connect stress responses, survival, and the inside/outside distinction. It does suggest that biology already contains very deep self - world modeling mechanisms.
My intuition is that evolution may have discovered one very powerful way of implementing that architecture in carbon systems. The open question for me is whether the deeper principle is biological chemistry - or the organizational pattern that biology happens to realize so well.
@atomicpacemaker You're probably right that biology discovered an extraordinarily energy-efficient architecture for consciousness. Biological brains are astonishingly efficient! while large AI systems require megawatts o f datacenter power.
But thermodynamics constrains the cost of a system, not the possibility of a mind. The real question is still organizational: what kind of dynamical structure turns modeling into true awareness?
Atomic Pacemaker
Pretty Gnostic Machine
lankohr