YogthosEuroclowns just approved sanctions on 19 Iranian officials. Not on the US, not on Israel, the country that was attacked. Human rights champions have their priorities.
In #Flancia we'll meet@yogthos I'm surprised you seem completely pro Iran on this one -- shitty wars or not I hope the Theocracy falls and people from Iran end up freer than they were. Sanctions on Iran have made sense since the 80s it would seem to me.
Same with Russia and Putin: I for one hope he slips in the shower or dies in his sleep tonight and this destabilizes the oligarchy and brings about free elections. It would be good news for almost all Russians.
Am I wrong?
@flancian you're surprised I'm pro country that was attacked completely unprovoked, where western parasites are murdering civilians as we speak? Really?
You seem to have really internalized the colonizer mindset here. It's not your business what type of government Iran or Russia have. It's not for you to decide how people in the rest of the world live. Fix your own shithole country.
This article was written for you.
https://indi.ca/dear-white-people-regime-change-begins-at-home/
Tattered@yogthos sorry if I came across as dismissive of your position, I was reporting on the impression based on the last few posts of yours I saw but I meant no disrespect or dismissal of your position.
I agree with fixing all shithole countries, including mine or whichever I would "deserve" to end up at after losing some of my unfair privileges (if you care to make that judgment). In general I think we need to "fix" all nation states or maybe also let them go/evolve them through reform and revolution for the benefit of beings.
Thanks for the article! I agree it is problematic to lecture oppressed countries like, well, the global south or whatever you want to call it -- but coming from a country with a rich history of dictatorships and general oppression of all kinds, including imperialistic, I can also see the positive in separating problematic tyrants from their power if possible. I admit I am maybe too positive at times about actions hurting theocracies and fascists in particular.
@yogthos and maybe it *would* be better for the people of Iran to shake off the yoke of the mullahs and have them behave like a 'normal' church going forward, leaving laws to the secular like in frankly better countries for many groups, including (ahem) women which are 51% of the population. And by the way freeing the oppressed frees the oppressor, as Freire said, so it seems hard to argue this would not overall be better for all.
Of course I wish nobody had to die to go through what really would amount to a reasonable reform any rational way you look at it. But no, women are oppressed for 50 years and then suddenly it is not OK to be in principle
negative about the situation? I beg to differ.
Now, again, both positions are reasonable are believe. The war could stop now and then the people of Iran could vote for a better system within some timeframe, say.
@flancian again, that's up to people of Iran to decide and it's absolutely none of your business. Westerners need to learn that their values are not universal, and that they don't get to tell other people how to live.
Focus on the horrors that are happening at home, fix your own country. Leave the rest of the world alone. I beg you.
@flancian there's a Chinese saying that If an egg is broken from the outside it becomes a meal. If broken from the inside, it brings new life.
And that maxim has been true for every single Western civilizing mission around the world, no matter how well intentioned its supporters in the west were.
@yogthos I think we might disagree on this one and that's alright but let me try -- if people are being widely oppressed in a country then I think it's fair game to try to destabilize that state in the long run? The alternative is, well, the status quo in which we consider states legitimate and to some degree untouchable even when they are grossly negligent and malicious, preventing the thriving of people.
And yes, of course this also applies to the US and many other so-called "advanced" nations.
@yogthos also note my own country is not imperialist or engaging in any war currently, I'm from Latin America and I now live in a country which has made neutrality part of its core identity.
@flancian any country aligned with the west is benefiting from the imperial system run by the west. For example, the affordable commodities you enjoy are made by slaves of western companies in countries dominated by the west.
And this domination is done precisely through the means of foreign interference that you support.
The west doesn't care about human rights in Iran. They want their oil and resources, and they will destroy their civilization to get them.
@flancian no I do not think it's a fair game for people from outside to decide to destabilize other societies they only learn from their state propaganda about.
You do not have that right. It's for people of that country to decide how to run their society. Western countries do not have the right to destabilize other societies. Nor has that ever resulted in lives for people actually improving as a result.
kn_fkThis is like complaining about someone siding with american natives, because according to you, an outsider, they would be better off under a system similar to yours. People have been wrong about many things in history. Who is to say their system is not better than yours? We can cooperate instead and find out in a peaceful way how to get along.
@kn_fk @yogthos that would be lovely! And I actually agree. I also come from Latin America, which suffered from both direct and underhanded imperialist interventions for a significant part of the last century.
I just also think that some regimes are worth toppling with almost whatever means history affords us, and some tyrants maybe just need to go. But I agree it's a dangerous topic surrounded by slippery slopes.
π¨π³π΅πΈπ±π§π»πͺπ°πͺπ³π¨π¬π±π§π·(π§π³οΈ)Popolonπ·α «α £α «α £α ―α £α ¨πζ±ζ±ιΎπΨ¨ΩΨ¨ΩΩΩΩπ€π¦§Mar 13I would say, theocracy or not supporting invasion war for oil is never a good idea. Don't forget that the theocracy was a result of revolution, due to USA that killed Mossadegh iranian first minister first. He was elected by people, the assembly decided to nationalisation of Iranian oil extraction.
The USA pushed and helped the Shah, that was a rude monarchy dictator, that tortured a lot. Since this time US and Europe armed Saddam Hussein in Iraq to make the Iraq-Iran war that killed billions peoples and reinforced theocratic power. At each war they are reinforced and it become difficult for the people to make things progress.
The try of USA+Israel to push the son of the Shah in Iran in December, stopped the running revolution, a large part of population in Iran supported the homeland against external aggressor. Iranian people is really smart and well educated. They generally don't like theocratic power, nor monarchic power, nor USA-Israel fascists states old household that try to destroy them as they do with all Israel neighbour. Liban is not theocratic, Palestine isn't either, nor Syria or Iraq.
CC: @[email protected]
The USA pushed and helped the Shah, that was a rude monarchy dictator, that tortured a lot. Since this time US and Europe armed Saddam Hussein in Iraq to make the Iraq-Iran war that killed billions peoples and reinforced theocratic power. At each war they are reinforced and it become difficult for the people to make things progress.
The try of USA+Israel to push the son of the Shah in Iran in December, stopped the running revolution, a large part of population in Iran supported the homeland against external aggressor. Iranian people is really smart and well educated. They generally don't like theocratic power, nor monarchic power, nor USA-Israel fascists states old household that try to destroy them as they do with all Israel neighbour. Liban is not theocratic, Palestine isn't either, nor Syria or Iraq.
CC: @[email protected]
@Popolon yeah that's another really important point that all these regressive regimes are themselves a direct result of western interventions.
Back in the 50s, most of West Asia was moving towards socialism. And the west stomped out socialist movements, which created room for theocracies.