d@nny disc@ mc²Mar 4
very interesting discussion which is now my go-to example for why talking about software outside of the political dynamics is a complete fabrication https://front-end.social/@mayank/116172356183037750
Mayank (@[email protected])

i agree with most of this article. https://tonsky.me/blog/fall-of-native/ (the title mentions Clyde (or is it Clint?) but that's unrelated to the actual substance of the article)

Front-End Social
Show threadd@nny disc@ mc²Mar 4
in comparing two sets of APIs, the difference is framed as inherent to the technologies as opposed to carefully constructed by the owners of the tech
Show threadd@nny disc@ mc²
the article link itself is extremely funny because it quite literally presumes microsoft and apple are the only two ways apps exist
Mar 4 at 8:23pmWeb
Show threadd@nny disc@ mc²Mar 4
this reply though (which seems genuine; not trying to call out the author here) is kind of remarkable to me https://front-end.social/@mayank/116172385250368984
Mayank (@[email protected])

i would add that native apps are simply out of reach for most indie devs and small teams. that is unless they're ok with deliberately locking themselves into a single platform/ecosystem. until progressive web apps become actually viable, building native apps using web tech is the most pragmatic approach. the amount of extra work required to go from a cross-platform pseudo-native app to individual fully-native apps is hard to justify.

Front-End Social
Show threadd@nny disc@ mc²Mar 4

i would add that native apps are simply out of reach for most indie devs and small teams. that is unless they're ok with deliberately locking themselves into a single platform/ecosystem.

like if we're describing web apps as a fundamentally different paradigm than executing code on the cpu, then why are we still using the terminology of platform specificity?

Show threadd@nny disc@ mc²Mar 4
because of course the web is not an open protocol. it is a google product. and electron is famously difficult to package. and electron apps take up memory like chrome does because chrome is trying to be an os
Show threadd@nny disc@ mc²Mar 4
one of the basic functions of distro packaging is sharing resources and one of the basic ways this is achieved is through shared libraries. it makes sense that this is extremely nonobvious if your worldview is windows vs apple because nothing is actually packaged on those systems and everything comes as an opaque binary. of course chrome is indistinguishable in those terms
Show threadd@nny disc@ mc²Mar 4
chrome was an outsider at the start so as all good monopolists know to do it played nice and invested in education because that is always how you get mindshare. it also ruthlessly destroyed or bought out any competition as both mozilla and twitter experienced
Show threadd@nny disc@ mc²Mar 4
almost any argument about computer performance in generality is false and fails to hold up to basic scrutiny. this is the final point that occurred to me: performance being a function of "native" apps, if it ever was true, was true because access to crucial APIs was withheld from those without a critical business relationship. this is one of the very basic ways that corps like google can make claims about their own power, by obscuring the ways others are held back from accessing what they have
Show threadd@nny disc@ mc²Mar 4
i'm still sore about google killing pants because we demonstrated bazel sucked shit. i'll never get over it. i'm also sore about uv stealing my work and directly claiming rust was the key difference. it turned me evil and i'm evil now. i get how elden ring bosses got that way
Show threadd@nny disc@ mc²Mar 4
i do feel intensely serene how this worldview explains much more about software. it also makes me feel much less concerned about big projects because i can be very confident that the time consuming bullshit is never about intrinsic difficulty
Show threadd@nny disc@ mc²Mar 4
some possibility regarding delusions of grandeur exists but self-doubt remains a far greater obstacle for the time being
Show threadd@nny disc@ mc²Mar 4
i think it was very important for me to read in a footnote that gödel clearly experienced symptoms of what we often term mental illness. i don't really need to accomplish anything of note. it's much more important to me that i don't hold myself back by telling myself it can't be me to do it i can't be capable of that
Show threadcloud native woofer🐾💖✨🏳️‍⚧️Mar 4
@hipsterelectron MOOD
Show threadJohn BreenMar 4
@hipsterelectron One of the patterns I recall from the early days was people packaging their own MSCRT.DLL version of the C runtime library. I mean, the great Microsoft could not figure out shared libraries, versioning, OS vs Application layer responsibilities, etc.
There was a term for it "DLL Hell".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Windows_library_files#MSVCRT.DLL,_MSVCP*.DLL_and_CRTDLL.DLL
Microsoft Windows library files - Wikipedia

Show threadGiacomo TesioMar 5
@[email protected]
native apps are simply out of reach for most indie devs and small teams
counter argument
https://claws-mail.org/ in #GTK
https://apps.kde.org/kleopatra/ in #Qt
https://orbitalquark.github.io/textadept/ in #GTK + #Scintilla

but basically most Gnome and Kde applications are, in fact, pretty portable and ported.

Electron advantage is much more about the reserve army of cheap #JS programmers than about team size.

@[email protected]
Claws Mail - The user-friendly, lightweight, and fast e-mail client

Show threadd@nny disc@ mc²Mar 16
@giacomo @alcinnz yes! i constantly work to improve the build process for cross-language code but especially code that plugs into OS APIs. i don't think the problem is with js programmers themselves but that the web platform is a google product that is accountable to no one
Show threadmaxine 🇵🇸Mar 4
@hipsterelectron I am genuinely fascinated by this position cause it seems unbelievable to me that after decades of open source successfully shipping across platforms and there being software that targets everything from dsi homebrew to samsung fridges, people think it’s still impossible cause they only ever use platform locked toolkits. I imagine porting SwiftUI sucks, but then it’s not like it’s that or electron…
Show threadsarah tonin Mar 4
@maxine @hipsterelectron to me the main reason is people get taught web tech, and it's easier to use what you know than use something you don't, so web tech gets more used, it gets taught more, and it goes around and around