snorker
What is stopping #signal from becoming interoperable with #chatmail relays (i.e #deltachat)? Is there anything that makes it infeasible or undesirable, other than being technically difficult? @signalapp
Mar 4 at 6:44pmMoshidon
Show threadFelixMar 4

@snorker @signalapp

It's the wrong question.

The question should be "why would they want to?".

Signal solves a specific issue (private messaging), and decentralisation does not help with that at all. As far as i can tell it makes it harder.

Therefore there is no need to be compatible with a decentralised service like delta which solves a different need.

Show threadadbMar 4

@newhinton well, I agree with the "why would they want to?" but for different reasons: they are not even federated across #signal servers how would they even think about being federated with something completely different

about your argument saying that federation does not help with private messaging, I disagree, federation makes it possible for you to self-host your server for your whole family and have them away from #Amazon or other centralized service's control, signal is a no-go

@snorker

Show threadsnorkerMar 4

@adbenitez @newhinton That makes sense, if i understand you courrectly you're saying that federation simply would be a very difficult technical issue to solve for signal?

How do you know they are not federated across their own servers? (I don't distrust you I would just like to read about it :))

Show threadadbMar 4

@snorker to be honest I don't know right now, but an easier first step would be if they allow federation with other signal servers, if they don't even allow that yet, it is trying to run before learn to walk to ask for compatibility with Delta Chat,

my guess is they are simply not interested in federation, they want full control over all the user base, which is a huge red flag for me, if it is centralized it is basically not good for digital independence and autonomy

@newhinton

Show threadFelixMar 4

@adbenitez @snorker

Yeah, but you are not talking about the same thing.

Signal is (only) about delivering a message from A to B, without C getting to know next to nothing about that.

Federation/Decentralisation is about making sure that your service cannot be controlled by a single entity.

Those two are entirely seperate issues that have next to nothing in common.

In this instance, decentralisation makes private messaging extremely hard, and would therefore downgrade signal.

Show threadsnorkerMar 4
@newhinton @adbenitez I can agree that they are separate issues in some sense, but the are both very much desireable
Show threadsnorkerMar 4

@newhinton @signalapp I guess the reason would be to allow deltachat users to communicate with signal users, which would be very good for deltachat users and I cannot see why it would be bad for signal and/or signal users.

It would also make signal less of a walled garden if someone no longer trusts, or disagrees with, the signal foundation.

Note: I do not use deltachat (yet?) and do not know too much about it. What need does it solve, if not private messaging?

Show threadTim ChambersMar 4

@snorker @signalapp

Genuinely curious to see an answer....

Show threadPeter K.Mar 4
@snorker Ten years ago, their answer was this: https://signal.org/blog/the-ecosystem-is-moving/
Reflections: The ecosystem is moving

At Open Whisper Systems, we’ve been developing open source “consumer-facing” software for the past four years. We want to share some of the things we’ve learned while doing it. As a software developer, I envy writers, musicians, and filmmakers. Unlike software, when they create something, it is...

Signal Messenger
Show threadsnorkerMar 4
@vagnretur Thank you, this was a very interesting read, exactly what I was looking for
Show threadarvindMar 4

Even though both Signal and Deltachat are instant messengers, they are fundamentally different at the protocol level.

Deltachat uses email as a substrate. Signal doesn’t.

More importantly, Deltachat uses Autocrypt, based on PGP, for encryption, while Signal uses the Signal protocol for encryption.

Autocrypt at present does not provide forward secrecy, or post-quantum encryption. The Signal protocol provides both.

The two encryption protocols are likely incompatible with each other. PGP relies on long-term keys. The Signal double ratchet involves derivation of new keys for every message so that earlier keys cannot be calculated from later ones. Trying something similar with PGP keys raises a lot of potential issues, as you can see from this discussion.

So… even if the Signal organization decides to enable federation for the Signal messenger, I doubt they will federate with Deltachat chatmail servers as they are presently designed.

@newhinton @adbenitez @vagnretur @tchambers


#signal #SignalApp #DeltaChat
Autocrypt 1.1.0 documentation

Show threadarvindMar 4

Also: there seems to be a near-consensus among cryptographers that PGP is simply a disaster, and must be absolutely avoided for any purpose whatsoever.

Here, for example, are a few blog posts:

Note that these opinions are spread out over a decade, and they are unanimous. You can find many more blog posts by other cryptographers expressing similar opinions.

I think the combined weight of all these individual opinions will also play a role in Signal’s decisions. So you can be almost certain that Signal will never support or even touch any encryption based on PGP.


#signal #SignalApp #DeltaChat
What’s the matter with PGP?

Last Thursday, Yahoo announced their plans to support end-to-end encryption using a fork of Google’s end-to-end email extension. This is a Big Deal. With providers like Google and Yahoo onboa…

A Few Thoughts on Cryptographic Engineering
Show threadDelta ChatMar 4
@dialecticalmusings We have more similar articles collected at https://support.delta.chat/t/controversial-article-about-email/3604 if you are interested.
Controversial article about email

I stumbled across this relatively recent article (2020) accusing secure email messaging of being just “role-playing.” Obviously I set out to read it because it intrigued me and I would like to discuss it with your opinion as well. I make a list of the passages that seem salient to me by adding my own thoughts: there is an accusation that pgp is not secure and it refers for example to the possibility of decrypting messages and there is a link to a list of problems. I can’t comment on that, t...

Delta Chat