@cy
> What was that non-blockchain network... Briar I think?

Briar is a neat experiment, but they've never shipped apps for anything but Android. The problem with depending on one proprietary OS ought to be obvious, Goggle's recent decision to start farming Android app devs is a good example;

https://keepandroidopen.org/

So until it's cross-platform, Briar is a fun toy, but not suitable for production use.

@soapdog

@cy
> Dunno what one would be good though

Depends on your use case/ threat model. Ask yourself questions like; who do I want to communicate with and why? Are you looking for software for an existing group/ network of people who can make and action decisions about where to communicate? Are you wanting to adopt an app to make new contacts among its current network? How sensitive are the communications? Etc, etc.

@soapdog

@cy
> I just use the Fediverse, nothing else seems worth bothering with

Same. Other than email and SMS, and occasional use of Matrix and even less often XMPP.

@soapdog

@soapdog
> the fediverse is indeed cool, but it is not the p2p I aim for

Pure P2P networks have been the holy grail of every new generation of cypherpunks since the 90s. They've never worked out. Everything that's turned out to be practical for use beyond dogfooding has some kind of supernode, and that's not even a bad thing;

https://bridgeseat.substack.com/p/in-defence-of-servers

> It is very costly to run an instance in terms of bandwidth

If you use Mastodon, sure. There are much more efficient fediverse servers.

@cy

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@cy
> gatekeeping supernodes

The option is there to be your own gatekeeper, eg with a GoToSocial instance. Most people *choose* to outsource this work. But no one is forced to.

> with no deniability

Huh?

> we're tied to one specific supernode

Not if you use Hubzilla, Streams, Forte, or other apps in theZot/Nomad branch of the 'verse.

Folks are working on FEPs for enabling other AP apps to become nomadic;

https://wedistribute.org/2024/03/activitypub-nomadic-identity/

@soapdog

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@cy
> Also substack are Nazis so don't read them

I'm aware of the issues with SS;

https://disintermedia.net.nz/ghosting-substack/

Haven't yet had the time and spoons to republish those Bridge Seat posts so I can stop linking to SS. Hope you'll make an exception for the sake of this discussion.

(3/3)

@cyd
> Secure Scuttlebutt works just fine

It works. But with *many* limitations, which is why other devs have moved on. These include;

* can't use one ID in multiple apps/ devices
* can't delete or edit posts
* rare but unavoidable netsplits that fork your ID

> My only complaint is it uses a blockchain

As @soapdog says, it doesn't. Social apps using a blockchain have been tried;

https://wiki.p2pfoundation.net/Blockchain_Social_Media_Apps

AFAIK they have to sync the entire network and get bogged down by chain size.

@strypey

can recommend to use `dat` all the upsides, none of the downsides.

identity works multi device too. you can delete or edit posts too and nefsplits do nothing.

its not using blockchains or token either.

@cy @strypey

then ssb is a blockchain as well, even more so than dat. i understand that one can define it like that, but imho if there is no token/cryptocurrency involved i would not call it a blockchain. usually ppl hearing blockchain think of cryptocurrency.

if you'd call dat blockchain, one should be aware it means every peer usually creates loads of them and only they can write to it and also subscribes to loads of them only writable by others. consensus then means it was signed by owner🤷‍♀️

@cy @strypey

you can use the the dat p2p network without hypercore, but alao hypercore scales perfectly well, the more peers, the better it scales, just like torrents do, but then again in peer to peer you dont need global consensus.

i feel this is not really leading anywhere though 🙂

@cy @strypey

no you dont.
you start with a hypercore's public key as its address to lookup peers and sync some log entries torrent style. you also sync a handful of "tree nodes" (=merkle proof) with a merkle root signature to verify data integrity using the pubkey you started with.

verifying means you can sync data from any random peer bittorrent style, but you know the data is exacty what the author published and wasnt accidently or maliciously changed.

@cy @strypey

plenty of apps exist. dat-ecosystem has dozens of them, multiple messengers, vpn's, radios, filesharing tools, p2p maps, p2p rss readers and even browsers and runtimes.