Mastodawn

And by slow posting, I mean slowwww. In between playing Majora's Mask with two cats sleeping on me ❤️

2/n

The problem with NL is that it's cold, grey, wet and miserable. Unless you like cycling through the rain (gas costs 3 dollars a liter and forget about parking), you'll be inside your house for 8 months out of the year. Even during the 2 weeks of summer, there's no nature to enjoy. We basically have 3 nature parks, which you can walk in a day. And that's it. The beaches are shit, the food is flavorless, everything looks the same. It's grey and bland every day.

3/n

All of that was somewhat tolerable, because at least most of us lived a decent middle class life here. But that's starting to disappear as well. I don't know what's happened the past few years, but life here has gotten ridiculously expensive. Groceries, taxes, rent, incidental expenses, everything increased. To a point where it regularly starts to eat into my savings. It doesn't make financial sense to stay in The Netherlands. It's just not worth it anymore.

4/n

That's not even mentioning the pension age that they raised to 72, the houses that on average cost over €500.000 (for a rijtjeshuis btw), the insane cost of being single instead of a couple, and the right wing conservative parties consistently dominating for the last 20 years leading to a hollowing out of every collective utility from healthcare to energy to housing. The Netherlands is a boomers paradise.

5/n

Clearly it's time to go (even though I'd be willing to stay a bit longer for a ~particular role~, in case my boss is reading this 😂), but the question is..

..go where?

Australia was a contender, but I haven't heard back from my visa application. Finding a visa sponsored job also hasn't led anywhere. Plus, it feels like Australians are dealing with their own financial challenges, especially aspiring home owners.

6/n

The US isn't an option for obvious reasons, Canada too cold, Latam too far, South Africa too murder-y, and Thailand doesn't seem convenient careerwise.

So that leaves Southern Europe.

The biggest issue is where and how. I have two cats to haul along. Do I buy a campervan and rent out my house? Where do I go?

Also, I love my work atm, can I keep doing that for as long as possible while figuring this out? And will I find a new role in the same field again?

7/n

At this point I'm pretty convinced I need to buy a campervan and just travel around 😅 I've only seen a fraction of the continent.

I can't think of any scenario that doesn't come with a cost. Every scenario means digging into my savings.

8/n

The saga continues. 🥲

We've established that I need to move abroad. I still don't know where to. And I have two cats to bring along.

The problem is that buying a campervan will easily erase 1/3rd to 1/2 of my savings. And I need those savings to buy a house or start a business. It would be much cheaper if I just knew where I wanted to live and moved there, but noooo. 🙄

I'm worried about spending all my money on travelling and then not having any left to move.

9/n

I'm also very unsure whether I'll like travelling by campervan. It seems equal parts fun and ghetto. 😂

Btw this would be across Europe. The question is where (but I'd def want to include France, Austria, Slovenia, Greece and Turkey).

10/n

Gina

What I could also do, instead of buying a van, is take short city trips by plane during long weekends all over Europe and try different places.

But that would limit me to big cities. While I think I might prefer smaller cities or even the countryside. But still with an expat vibe. And good coffee places. And quiet. But also lively. Sigh. 🤦🏼‍♀️

11/n

1) https://www.campermakelaar.nl/aanbod/details/kampeerauto/1035092-dethleffs-limited-edition-7151-dbm-fifteen-queensbedhe.html/

Kay, I've found a few options in the €35k to €45k range. What do we think?

2) https://www.campermakelaar.nl/aanbod/details/kampeerauto/1015540-burstner-solano-t-615-zonnepaneel.html/

3) https://campers.nl/campers-te-koop/halfintegraal/knaus-sky-ti-650-mf/c7162fde-1302-4340-b876-902380ce400f

12/n

@Gina hum... 🤔

@Gina Those look very posh but also high mileage. Looks good, but dunno about the maintenance and reliability.

@lalalasombra Yeah the 145.000 km one might be too much. 100k I can live with.

@Gina @lalalasombra 145k is nothing for a delivery van. Basically new. But it might not be the real mileage, turning back the mileage is extremely common. Most don't overdo it, maybe 50k or so. Look at the rest of the thing. Does that driver seat look like 145k or like 250k? Is the suspension knackered? The DPF clogged? Exhaust rusting away?

Steve Bannister Mar 1

@Gina for me number 1 has a fantastic layout, but is the longest by a half meter. I'm currently converting a LWB van and parking locations in towns can be tricky to find. On a campsite the space is great. Something to think about maybe?

@Gina they all look good :)

Anton Mar 1

@Gina are you alone with your cats? Those three are huge.
A fellow camper recommended staying under 6m total length. If your camper is longer, you have bigger parking and transit costs.
Nevertheless: nice choices. I'd take one as well for myself.

@anton true, but the small ones look so cramped 🥲

fedops 💙💛Mar 1

@Gina at some point you will have to make up your mind whether you want to burn money on campers or on trips, or buy a house somewhere. Probably attempting all isn't really going to work.

@fedops Jup, that's the dilemma.

The Ghost of Toots Passed Mar 4

@Gina
So I'm going to offer my opinion about the camper idea. While it sounds fun, I believe the purchase will be a money sink that you'd be better off just spending on rentals and hotel rooms. You'll sleep better and not have to deal with repair shops. Yes the vehicle represents an investment of sorts, but it will always be diminishing..

I understand the tug in your mind. When I made a big move like that, it helped me to move with friends. I don't think that is viable for you, but food for thought.

Stick with it, make it happen! You got this!!
@fedops

@Gina I assume you have the right driving license for these things.

Those are essentially converted delivery vans. Generally very reliable, but everything hinges on the engine. Look them up, get one that runs half a million km, not all do. The rest is just a box that should not leak and have the conveniences you desire (bed, galley, toilet, the showers suck anyways). It will break and you will fix it or pay twice for having it fixed.

You got the rest right, part fun adventure and part ghetto and a bonus part of "you can't stay here we're calling the cops".

And getting very excited about finding a manhole you can pry open with a hook so you can dump your toilet tank into the hole without having to carry your collected excreations around in a sloshy tank.

@yngmar Oh man this has me really excited about leaving my fancy apartment with heated floors, robot vacuum and massive bathroom. 😂

@Gina Freedom has its price ;-)

Nick Mar 3

@yngmar @Gina True! You have to find your balance between maximising autonomy by moving away from your herd and losing the shared comforts and fallbacks of the major society… Choosing to give up the life you're used to is emotionally and bureaucratically different from some post-apocalyptic fictions where you're just flung into the wild and have to deal with it. And there's indeed the aspect of not being able to really move away from society in Europe :p

@Gina I can tell you from liveaboard experience, there is a definite progression in this life.

You start out inexperienced and spending too much money on the wrong things and then you have some adventures and learn a lot about a huge variety of things and people and places and in the end you never bother with a lifejacket anymore, know all the good places to repair, all the beautiful, free hangouts away from the noobs and you learnt how to fix anything. The newcomers look at you with a mix of admiration and wrinkled noses. All your clothes are worn paper thin and have holes and you know this doesn't matter as long as you keep one set of fancy clothes for when you have to briefly return to the world of ignorance to do some paperwork.

Adnan Mar 1

@Gina i think if you are worried about the cost, you should first try the train or flying to your preferred destinations. You can rent a car locally.

Ric Mar 1

@Gina Diesels at those mileages should still have a lot of life left, but in the UK I'd say that you want to be checking their MOT histories - see what sort of advisories and fails they've had over the years (notable rust, wobbles, etc), and whether they've had new belts yet as they're probably due if not, but... It doesn't seem like that's a thing you can look up over there? 🤨

🇳🇱🇪🇺Jeroen🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦Mar 2

@Gina The thing with all such models is that they are pretty high maintenance. It's basically all caravan-trailer-type materials, meaning it's heavily weight-optimized which comes at the cost of durability. My parents have a similar model, and it's shocking (to me anyway) how much they spend each year on repairs alone. Not sure if this is helpful 😀 .

Gina Mar 2

@jeroen94704 this is very helpful actually, thank you! I'm considering smaller models as well, like buscampers instead of camper campers.

🇳🇱🇪🇺Jeroen🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦Mar 2

@Gina Yeah, subjectively buscampers are sturdier (no direct experience though).

Of course you can also buy a used box-van and convert it yourself. That's on my bucket-list for "someday" 😀

hermetikoz Mar 1

It will be great fun.

lalala sombra Mar 1

@Gina Try aiming for some suburbs, maybe? Some can feel quite rural and still close enough to large cities

@Gina What you can do too. You live a minimalist lifestyle, work less and travel more. You choose a different place each time and stay there for a longer period. But you keep your base in the Netherlands.

@AccordingtoWouter yeah but I'd need someone to look after my cats. Also I hate the Netherlands, I don't want to be here a second longer. 😂

@Gina I understand you, Gina. I have also moved countries and lived abroad for long periods of time. I have learned one thing: other countries have their issues too. And much of what I read in your topics (except for the weather) also exists in other countries. And in some cases, it is even worse organised. I just wanted to share that with you (and yes, I know it sounds pessimistic). The proverbial greener grass.

@AccordingtoWouter absolutely, and I'm a big believer of "where ever you go, there you are."

@Gina I think the south of France could be a good choice for you. Cities such as Toulon, Fréjus, Cannes or Nice. Larger but not too large, good weather, good food. Close by beaches. Or further inland and smaller towns such as Draguignan, Grasse (famous for its perfumery).

@Gina
Countryside, with an expat vibe, and great coffee. Let me gently doubt the existence of such a place - though your definition of "countryside" may be a lot more urban than mine.

@jannem idk there were plenty of places in Australia that fit the description, like Gerringong and Wollingong. For contrast, Sydney was waaay too busy for me.

@Gina
Yep, different idea of "countryside" 😁

@jannem I do wonder how it would be to live in places like Japan. You live in the countryside there, right?

@Gina
Maybe according to your definition (and maybe not even then). We have an apartment in Ginowan, a city of about 100k, and directly connected to Urasoe, then Naha in the south; and Chatan and Okinawa City in the north.

To me this is still urban (if not the big city vibe of, say, Osaka or Tokyo). Many japanese consider Okinawa as a whole as the far-end of nowhere.

We have streetlights and sidewalks. That's at least semi-urban to me.

🍵 holly Mar 1

@jannem @Gina I LOVE Japan, the people, the food, the aesthetic, a lot of the culture.. but my experience living there was that if you planned to put down roots and integrate you would have to reckon with the gender-essentialist and extreme hierarchical nature of Japanese society. And it's a society that exerts suffocating social control. But my knowledge is 25 years out of date, so I'm curious to hear from Janne if it has changed.

@holly @Gina
So, things have indeed gotten better gender-wise (but I'm grading on a curve here). It depends on where you are and where you work. And LGBT issues have never become a political or religious punching ball.

But, I'm a middle-aged straight white north-European married academic that speaks Japanese. I may be a foreigner and immigrant but I certainly do it on easy mode. My perspective and experience is not that of people with other backgrounds.

@Gina you mentioned Australia, but perhaps New Zealand?

The other day I checked the democracy index 2025, and it cross-ref'ed to another list measuring countries on a host of safety, freedom, human rights criteria. Perhaps there are more such lists with things you do not readily think of, e.g. on laws, regulations, pension, etc.

Here's that list in case it is useful: https://freedomforallamericans.org/safest-countries-in-the-world/

@smallcircles New Zealand would be an interesting option, esp the north island. Unfortunately it has the same housing problem as Australia. I'm not moving to the other side of the world just to be poor there.

@Gina ah yes, that is true. I have family living there, but they emigrated from NL long ago, at the height of the Cold War and going the safest country to be in, in case of a nuclear war. They are now long-time house owners with big overvalue. 😅

Do you want to go for bustling city life, or quiet rural life? I was attracted by those TV programs of Floortje Dessing "Alone on the World", for instance the edition where she visited a family living in the Belise jungle. Surrounded by Nature, though not far from road and city. Those examples are a bit extreme, of course, but the general idea for the non die-hard hobbyist "lonely planeters" is fine.

@Gina Chili is also rural galore, beautiful nature. Speak Spanish fluently (if you don't already), 2nd largest language, always handy.

On that safety list btw, there are some surprising positions.

https://freedomforallamericans.org/democracy-index-rankings/

@Gina here is that democracy index. The EIU list is I think the official one, but last publication dates from 2024. I hoped to find 2026 and was curious how they'd rank the USA with Mr. T and all that jazz.

Democracy Index 2025: Global Rankings That Show Where Freedom Is Rising or Fading

Global democracy slipped again in the 2025 index as civil liberties, elections, and public trust weakened across every major region.

Freedom For All Americans

Strypey Mar 1

@smallcircles
> here is that democracy index. The EIU list is I think the official one, but last publication dates from 2024

Wow, Aotearoa is number 2 on this list. Either this means it's wildly inaccurate or heavily biased, or it has very depressing implications for the state of democracy in the world right now.

Strypey Mar 1

@Gina
> New Zealand would be an interesting option, esp the north island. Unfortunately it has the same housing problem as Australia

Aotearoa has *worse* housing problems than Oz, and we're currently stuck with a hard right govt captured by the property baron class, determined to make them worse. We've got every problem you describe Nl as having, except the shitty weather and the lack of green space. Also jobs of any kind are rare as hen's teeth.

@smallcircles