nutbutter"Being vegan is unnatural"
I mean, it’s not really bestiality if it isn’t sexual. A gynocological exam also isn’t fingering …
“someone”
Keyword.
If it applies to one animal it should apply to all, but go ahead and be a special snowflake instead
Stiffy
bearboiblakepaying someone to kill an animal so that you can consume its corpse is how you treat animals nicely, is it?
OK, so if negative fucks were a thing that would be how may fucks in general i give about the actual argument you are having.
That being said, to me it seems hypocritical to be throwing shade about intentional animal cruelty unless you are somehow posting these replies without using any electronics whatsoever.
Almost all electronics require materials sourced or processed off the back of rare earth minerals not even mentioning the supply chain and assembly.
As you said, people are animals too, slavery and workplace mutilation are animal abuse.
I’m not whattabouting your argument, both things are fucked up and one doesn’t cancel out the other and as i said, i’m not supporting either side.
but the stunning lack of awareness (or acknowledgement) of the hypocrisy of your argument is offensive.
You do it literally every time you purchase a meat product. Meat is made from the dead body of animals. When you buy it, you are retroactively paying for the slaughter of that animal.
money is still bound by linear time. the animal is already dead, and the person who did it is already paid.
Oh yeah, I’m sure the entire meat industry would continue to produce meat that nobody paid for just so they could let it all rot. If you want to eat meat, go ahead, but stop fucking lying to yourself about what you are responsible for. Every time you eat meat, a living creature suffered and died for it, and you gave someone money to facilitate that. That is the reality and you should accept it. Take responsibility for your choices instead of fleeing responsibility like a coward.
You know that others will resupply if you buy this thing. If you didn’t knew until now that people resupply what you buy, now you know. Making you definitely are responsible from now on.
Imagine I throw candy at the floor an this kid always picks it up. Then I throw candy at the train tracks and the kid gets ran over. Am I not responsible for the kids actions?
knowledge, being a justified, true belief, precludes knowing the future. I cannot know what others will do.
I used “know” in the colloquial sense. Do you think it’s unjustified to believe that they will resupply your demand?
since the future hasn’t happened yet, no claim about it can, in the present moment, be true. so you can’t know it.
I did not use the word “know” in the question “Do you think it’s unjustified to believe that they will resupply your demand?”. Notably, I asked if it is unjustified to believe so.
You know that others will resupply if you buy this thing
if you will admit that it is impossible to know this, we can follow whatever tangent you like
You claimed it’s impossible to know this in the philosophical sense, granted.
I clarified that my question was posed using “know” in the colloquial sense (i.e. to understand, to take cognition of). The question I originally asked is still unanswered.
Do you think it’s unjustified to believe that they will resupply your demand?
people believe all kinds of things with varying levels of justification. i can probably come up with some justification, but that doesn’t mean i know it.
You’re cool with people buying lampshades and soapsmade from killed holocaust victims?
This might be shocking for a g*rman to hear but giving money to people perpetrating a holocaust is bad
The animal holocaust is ongoing. Would you be buying lampshades from human skin during the holocaust?
Would you be buying lampshades from human skin during the holocaust?
I’ve done that. Fresh turkey slaps.
Walk_blesseDHey everyone, get a load of Josef Goeddels over here.
goedel suffered immensenly due to the nazis, I agree with you in the gist but using goedels name like that is bad vibes
ok fair
Like, what a fucking stupid answer that can apply to anything and nothing at the same time.
Animals are animals, and humans are animals. Kangaroos are not cows, but both are also animals - different things ARE different, but at the same time, in some aspects, they are not.
Why doesn’t my dog have a right to vote? Why can a snake eat eggs but I can’t? Why is it OK for ants to farm aphids but not for humans to farm cows?
Different things are, in fact, different. There are lots of dead simple and airtight arguments for veganism without counterproductive emotional appeals. Talk about economics or ecology or health and not about sad puppy dog eyes.
It’s not rape if it’s your dog
That’s correct, yes.
However, my dog is my property, and someone can only artificially inseminate my property with my permission.
toomanypancakesWhat in the fuck
Anti-vegans will go to any depths of depravity in order to deal with their cognitive dissonance. Once, on Reddit, I got a commenter to agree that he would be fine if someone had a dog in a cage they tortured for entertainment, rather than agree that it’s kinda fucked up that we slaughter animals because their flesh tastes nice.
Real question, what if there is no cognitive dissonance.
Like someone who knows exactly what’s going on and says “fuck it, it’s delicious” ?
I’d ask them to sit down and watch a documentary about the animal agriculture industry (such as Earthlings) to be sure they really do know the truth.
and then , once they acknowledge that ?
The reason i ask is that I’ve never heard an opinion from someone with the viewpoint it seems you hold talk about what they’d think in that situation.
and my follow up would be to ask why meat and not electronics (explained below) or textiles or megacorps ?
In general i struggle with why people place these ethical and moral rubicons in the places they do (i do mostly understand why the lines exist)
I mentioned in another comment about the horrific shit that goes in to basically all electronics (there are numerous documentaries and articles on the horrors of cobalt mining for instance) and it seems odd that people are ok with that but not the meat industry, or perhaps fine with both of those but draw the line at baby animals.
Again, i understand why the lines exist, it’s the seemingly arbitrary nature of where they are placed for different circumstances that eludes me.
I’m asking so i can gather opinions enough that hopefully i can understand, eventually
Honestly, if someone is truly aware of the horrors of the animal agriculture industry and is totally fine with it, I would be very, very surprised. I have never experienced anyone who genuinely thinks it’s okay. Most people take the position of, “yeah, it’s really terrible and I don’t like it, but…” which I have to live with because that’s most people, but even most of the people who agree it is terrible don’t really know the full truth and often they don’t want to let themselves find out, because they know in their heart if they truly understood how horrific the industry is, they would feel terrible every time they ate.
If someone genuinely thought it was OK, I would assume that they’re a sociopath. Not even in a bad way, necessarily, I have friends who are sociopaths, but I think that’s basically the only way you can lack the empathy.
For the follow-up question, there are a few reasons, I’ll outline a few of them, happy to discuss further, if you have questions then let me know.
I’m not saying that vegans shouldn’t advocate for ethical manufacture and disposal of electronics, I believe wholeheartedly that we should. But it’s impossible to have an entire industry for making baby animals, fattening them up, and slaughtering them so that we can make money from people who wish to consume their corpses. It is fucked up on the face of it. Melting metal, pouring it into moulds to make circuitry, etc. doesn’t hurt anyone directly, it’s capitalism and the drive for maximal profits which cause issues in electronics. I’m a huge proponent for the abolition of capitalism for this reason too.
Hope this helps <3
iamthetotI’m not okay with basically anything that occurs under capitalism, but I have limited time on this earth and I have to pick and choose my battles.
Sure, and that’s totally valid, nobody is saying you need to become an animal rights activist. I think everyone should try their best to live their values, and that’s what I do. It’s not about a quest for perfectionism or anything like that, just trying our best as little humans with limited power to make the world a better place.
Hope this helps <3
It does and your points are valid, but i’ll respond to a couple if you don’t mind.
Honestly, if someone is truly aware of the horrors of the animal agriculture industry and is totally fine with it, I would be very, very surprised.
As would i (outside of the sociopath possibility you also mention) , i was thinking more along the lines of people who fully understand and then accept it as something they can live with.
The comparisons of the meat industry to electronics i mostly agree with, except for this last part, not because it’s incorrect as such, i just didn’t provide enough context.
Melting metal, pouring it into moulds to make circuitry, etc. doesn’t hurt anyone directly, it’s capitalism and the drive for maximal profits which cause issues in electronics. I’m a huge proponent for the abolition of capitalism for this reason too.
I mentioned electronics because it’s easy for people to at least shallowly understand how much they use them, what’s not so obvious is the horrors of how they are produced, in a similar way to how people as a whole don’t really understand how the meat industry is run.
Long before the metal pouring and assembly you have the rare earth elements industry that uses horrific limb-removing slave work camps to extract these minerals. it’s not all of them, but it’s significantly more than zero.
There are also cartel like warlords involved in some of the extraction sites.
Think of it as a similar situation to conflict diamonds, but more entrenched and critical to nation state interests.
I mentioned cobalt because it’s the easiest to find credible documentaries, reports and discussions about, but it’s not just cobalt.
Honestly a lot of the big industries are supported by modern day slavery and inhumane conditions or experimentation, i would also assume that extends to the non-human animals as well but i can’t honestly speak to that.
Textiles (clothes, shoes, trainers), agriculture (avocado’s have cartels because of course they do, coffee), pharmaceuticals, non-meat food (chocolate for example).
I keep coming back to the phrase “There is no ethical consumerism under capitalism” which aligns with your stance on the abolition of capitalism, but i tend to think of it as there is no ethical consumerism in general (at least right now) because i can’t think of a way we could ethically overcome the sheer density of population using the level of logistical technology we have available and that’s not even taking into account the (subjective) apparent nature of how human’s deal with such large populations.
But me not being able to see how we make the jump from now to a post scarcity, fully equitable society is almost certainly just a failure of my imagination.
My main question is how do people seem to be able to decide they can live with limbless kid electronics but slave labour clothes are too far, cartel avocado’s are an unfortunate necessity but meat is monstrous.
I understand that not all of those things are equal and battles need to be picked but it doesn’t seem like the subjective severity is the deciding factor and how are the battles picked.
Thanks for the reply and for your ongoing civility, I really appreciate that you seem genuinely interested in having a conversation about this.
You don’t need to explain to me about the horrors of the electronics industry, I’ve been an activist opposing extractive industries since my teen years, but of course I’m glad you’re raising awareness of it. Heck in my recent comment history I was talking about how I am opposed to EV vehicles and advocating for (green) hydrogen fuel cells due to rare earth extractionism.
I believe that extractionism can never be perfect (i.e. it will always cause some harm) but it’s possible to have a mining industry without slavery, murder, etc. and which is ran as ethically as possible to minimize harm on individuals and the environment. As I mentioned in my last comment as well the disposal and recycling of electronics is a massive issue which also needs to be addressed, as well as disposable/single-use electronic products and planned obsolescence.
On the other hand, animal agriculture NEEDS animals to die, and it needs them to die on such a scale that we NEED an industrial approach. I think you could make a pretty compelling argument that an individual hunting animals to feed their family is somewhat ethical (this isn’t my position btw, just making the point for the sake of discussion), but that can’t really scale up and remain ethical. At a certain point you need to keep the animals in shitty living conditions because otherwise the supply/demand curve would make animal products inaccessibly expensive for regular consumption.
My main question is how do people seem to be able to decide they can live with limbless kid electronics but slave labour clothes are too far, cartel avocado’s are an unfortunate necessity but meat is monstrous.
For electronics, I think the biggest reason is the second one I mentioned: it’s not really possible to avoid them. Personally I always try to buy everything second hand that I can, especially electronics, but I don’t think it’s really fair or sustainable to expect everyone to do that, someone has to buy it new to begin with.
A better comparison is blood diamonds. They’re entirely optional and the ethical alternative is widely available and cheaper. I think you’d be well within your rights to say that a vegan who insists on blood diamonds is hypocritical. I don’t think a vegan using a second-hand cellphone is hypocritical. If they always buy the latest phone I would say that’s back to being hypocritical again.
And yeah, scale is a big factor. Over 150,000,000,000 animals are slaughtered in the animal agriculture industry every year. The scale is beyond staggering. Since becoming vegan nearly six years ago, according to the Cowculator app, my personal consumption has resulted in:
- 8,727,645 fewer litres of water used
- 42,783 fewer kilograms of grain used
- 5,842 fewer square meters of deforestation
- 19,015 fewer kilograms of CO₂
- 2,096 fewer animals slaughtered
The animal agriculture industry is one of the most polluting, most wasteful industries on the planet. It’s absolutely mind-warping once you get into the numbers.
watch a documentary
I love how vegans are literally always someone who fell for fake propaganda and never someone with real knowledge or experience of the agricultural industry. I watched several of my vegan friends do a 180 in vet school once they started internships and saw first hand how the animal industry operates, and realized their ex-conviction was based on sensationalized lies.
It’s amazing what people will refuse to comprehend when their salary depends on them not understanding it, isn’t it?
Link the blog
And dox this girl to a bunch of rabid extremist vegans on the internet? Yeah right. What a great idea.
Some people are just sociopathic and don’t have any empathy for others.
The fact you can’t see how contradictory this is is quite humorous.
“Feels good” is not a valid justification to harm others, imagine how that justification would apply in other cases and it’s pretty easy to see how it falls apart. You can’t be logically consistent with that justification to harm others. The same with apathy, also not a justification to needlessly exploit animals.