How do you personally determine if someone is a good or bad person?

https://lemmy.world/post/43371882

How do you personally determine if someone is a good or bad person? - Lemmy.World

If you don’t agree with the concept of good or bad people, you dont have to answer. If you think a person is good or bad based on where they were born you don’t have to answer.

how do they value family? as throwaways or as irreplaceable star material?
To be fair, there’s nothing wrong with throwing away family members who are not good people.
If they harm other people, intentionally or not, physically, emotionally, etc. And they could stop but choose not to, then often they are a bad person.

Although philosophers who embrace moral realism will have different views, my takeaway is that it is much harder to be a virtuous moral agent than the layperson assumes.

That said, if I find that a person often puts their own interests above those of everyone else, this is a good indication of questionable character.

This you?

Ha! In a few ways, yes.
This is why everyone hates moral philosophy professors
It’s not all or nothing, and small things are universally tolerable. Gluttony isn’t good but most people have someone fat/obese they love and even admire. Excess vanity isn’t good but to a certain degree most women are somewhat vain and that doesn’t make them bad (and men enjoy looking at women when they’re done up too), right? It’s impossible to be perfect, and virtue will be disregarded at times, but I think it’s not that difficult to be above the threshold we all naturally understand (unless you’re an amoral perspectivist): don’t lie, don’t cheat, don’t be coercive or aggressive, don’t mistreat others, take your vows seriously (raise your kids and try to make things work with your partner), be generous when possible, etc etc. And you can always repent and make amends when you fail too, people understand.

It’s impossible to be perfect, and virtue will be disregarded at times, but I think it’s not that difficult to be above the threshold we all naturally understand

This is a practical mindset to have but allow me to say more about where I think the difficulty lies. 1) We commonly do immoral things. 2) The right thing to do isn’t always clear. Let’s consider each in turn.

  • Many practices are so commonplace in our time that we no longer feel their moral implications: even when we know that the action is wrong! For example, I eat meat that comes from factory farmed animals; I know that the animals are essentially being tortured, but it’s easy to let price and gustatory pleasure outweigh the moral considerations because everyone else is doing the same. Similarly, I know that the minerals (e.g., cobalt) used to build my cellphone come from literal slave labor of miners in the Congo. Yet instead of buying a Fair Phone, I bought the cheapest phone that served my own needs.
  • There are also cases in which our virtues come into conflict. In such cases, the right action to take is not always so straight-forward. For example, is it okay to tell my wife a white lie if I know it makes her feel better? (Deontologists like Immanuel Kant would emphatically answer “no”.) Or, if I have a set amount of money to donate, should I give the money to a random unhoused person, donate the money to someone (who I cannot see) in an even worse position in a poorer country, or give the money to a friend/family? Moral realists (e.g., virtue ethicists, deontologists, consequentialists) all agree that there are definitive answers to these questions, even though they will disagree on what the actual answers are.
  • To be a morally virtuous persons, it seems you have to be willing to go against the common practices of your own time and you must also be knowledgeable enough to make correct moral judgements. This is a tall order for most of us to achieve.

    Easy. By what they say and do.

    I assume everyone is good by default, and I’ll usually let a tasteless joke slide once, because we all occasionally put our foot in mouth.

    If their actions and words don’t mesh with my own moral compass, they aren’t a person I associate with any more than necessary.

    How do they treat those that are “beneath” them? Customer service workers, pets, kids, etc. Anyone that they should have some sort of authority over.

    THIS is the answer. You can tell a lot about a person on how they treat people that they cannot use to make themselves richer or look better.

    When you die, you will bring no money with you. You will bring no material items. Your words will be forgotten. Your name will eventually crawl its way back into the abyss of non-existence from where it came along with all the others. The ONLY thing that will have mattered in the slightest in your measly and momentary existence is how you made others feel. To live a life with any sort of self-importance is to rob yourself of the only thing that matters in the entirety of the known universe.

    In addition, how quick they are to declare others to be beneath them.
    That’s definitely a big one for me.
    This and the shopping cart test tells you a lot about a person.
    If they are willing to hurt other people for their own benefit or for no reason. Or if they are willing to help someone else do that.
    Yea there aren’t good or bad people, just good or bad decisions.
    I don’t think you’ve met enough people
    on the contrary, I worked in a jail. the idea is a myth.

    I don’t judge persons (because I’m not in their head), I look at their actions.

    Also, I tend to steer away from the ‘good’ vs ‘bad’ (persons, thoughts, sexuality, religion, and so on) that were and still way too often used to hurt people one doesn’t like or agree with.

    Good old fashioned eye/smell test.

    Louis Rossman had a video years ago that really got me looking at people differently. An obvious sign for him is how they treat animals. animals sadly are often the ultimate litmus test for ones morality. I find that respecting an animal, its boundries and its emotions is a thing only possible when youve developed a (imo) basic sense of empathy, that for pets and animals cant be expressed verbally.

    Think of times when a person was trying to force an animals to behave in a particular way purely for self intrest. Or if someone you know outright denies the complex emotions of animals. I am by no means an animal rights activist and i often can be heard yelling at my dog to stop barking or etc. But i think even if we “own” them most good people dont think of pets as propperty, status symbols, or entertainment.

    the moment i see behavior like this I try to correct and if they actively fight me on it or make no attempt to improve. I will disconnect from them entirely, not worth it. If thats how you treat family, i dont want to see how you treat friends.

    If society was only copies of this person, would it be better or worse to live in than current society?

    Oh no, my puddle of depression is gonna become a tsunami of depression.

    A society of "me"s is cooked. Unable to do anything because its too scary to go outside.

    The worst thing you’ll run into is another depressed puddle. Can’t be too bad unless you’re something like a reckless driver because nothing matters.
    Yeah but you’re not raping and murdering and lying and scamming so perhaps it wouldn’t be a very productive society but at least we’d be safe with a society of yous. 🤷😁
    Thats an interesting way to look at it!
    How eusocial they are / how well they fit in society. This is not a moral judgement, for me, just an assessment of how adept they are at being a person.

    If they lie all the time, they are probably willing to do other awful things as well.

    If they are willing to steal outside of a desperate situation, if they treat someone who’s been good to them awful, if they treat those beneath them awfuly, if they judge based on location, race, etnicity, etc. If they put whatever fantasy world they live in, over reality (antivaxxers and such, and yes religious people).

    If they co-operated with Jeffrey Epstein, they only belong in the woodchipper.

    I’d mostly agree but would need to hear more about your view on religious people I guess.

    Antivaxx mom let’s baby die of mumps, because God wanted us to live (and die) natural lives, India citizen drinks infected, dirty lake water, because “holy water can’t be dirty”.

    Ok, so you found some way to cope with life, and you believe in some deity or whatever, that’s a you thing. But then, you start getting people killed over what is a belief, when you can clearly see with your own eyes that it is not working.

    Was it really worth it?

    Good people:

    • Take time to listen to others even if it’s something they don’t agree with, they want to understand the other person before they want to performatively argue.

    • Treat others with kindness, and everyone equally, no matter their age, race or social standing.

    • Make sure people are treated fairly by others even if it’s very small gestures like noticing you said something nobody heard and calling attention to it.

    • Care about how they make other people. I mean, it should be obvious but apparently a LOT of people took all the wrong lessons from their saturday morning cartoons and care more about being emotionally vindicated and somehow still think they’re the good ones, a tendency that covers every side of every population or group.

    By their ability to empathize.
    I assume everyone is good untill they give me a reason to think otherwise. However, for me to know that someone truly is a good person takes years of knowing and interacting with them.

    I don’t like to think of people as immutably good or bad, but I get what you meant.

    There’s a bunch of factors.

    • are they honest?
    • are they kind?
    • do they care about things other than themselves?
    • do they try to make the world better?

    So, someone who lies, is cruel, doesn’t care about anyone else, and leaves the world a mess is being a pretty bad person.

    Someone who just keeps their head down, goes to work, and is polite to people they meet is kind of middling.

    I think that’s a great answer!

    If a person operates as if nothing is unconditional and they expect something in return or else you are deemed worthless, they’re a fucking cunt.

    If a person continually makes a situation about themselves even when it’s 100% not, that’s a red flag.

    If they whine and complain to get what they want or have others do for them, they’re a bad person.

    Yelling at a newborn baby in a punishing manner as if they have any understanding of anything.

    Sometimes they’re just easily overwhelmed and can’t think clearly. Not an excuse but at least it’s the background of their actions, they’re not doing this in complete awareness and out of malice. Nonetheless, we have the moral duty to know and correct ourselves to the best of our abilities.
    Oh I totally get it. But when the pattern persists, it may take another’s intervention to correct the behavior. That’s opening up a whole new can of worms.
    Ocular patdown
    Always hit em with an ocular pat down

    I’ve always struggled with it, so I’ve learned to ask someone better at character judgement than I.

    I used to check with my dog. Then I met my wife and found out over a year how moral she was and how consistently she applied those morals. Now I ask her.

    Out of curiosity and nothing else, why do you think you’re a poor judge of character? And are you neurodivergent in some way (I’m an ADHD enjoyer, btw, I’m not hating here)?
    Past experience, mostly. My neurons are divergent as well, and anyone who was nice to me could get my trust, which often turned into someone taking advantage of me or backstabbing me.
    Thanks for the reply. I’m glad to know you’ve found someone you can trust safely!
    Depends on how they handle their Nardwuar interview.

    You really don’t know until you need something from them.

    But even good people may not be able to help you if they’re not able to right that moment.

    Finding good willing people seems to be more of a numbers game.

    In addition to some of the other criteria mentioned, some other indicators of a bad person are:

    • Using bad-faith argument techniques, such as tone policing
    • Endorsing or demanding conformity for conformity’s sake
    This answer seems more geared towards online behavior as opposed to real world behavior.

    The [fundamental attribution error)[en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error] explains why we perceive people to be good or bad.

    I know you said to just downvote, but I really strongly believe the world would be a much better place if people tried to understand the motivations of others, rather than trying to categorise them as good or bad people.

    if people tried to understand the motivations of others,

    This is essentially my qualifier for “good”.

    What if my motivation is unfettered lust and that’s why I rape kids? Power and that’s why I’m a murderous colonizer? Is everything perception or, in your opinion, are some things actually just “categorically bad”?

    In my opinion categorizing someone as categorically bad is reductive, lazy thinking.

    I’m not saying you need to like pedophile rapists and murderous colonizers.

    Merely that going through life categorizing the every day people you meet as good or bad is reductive, lazy thinking and frankly - the basis of undesirable cognitive habits like racism and prejudice.

    The people you interact with each day are complex individuals with just as much going on internally as you do. None of them think of themselves as “bad”.

    I agree but at some point you have to make a decision, because in your personal life you will trust and stay away from people based on that judgement. Basically, people cross a threshold one way or another, where that lies is somewhat different from everyone (in intensity not direction) but not by much.

    Racism is the opposite though: regardless of your deeds, you’re good or bad if you’re part of my personally accepted tribes.

    And whether they think themselves as bad when it’s warranted or not is inconsequential. Of course their nasty, vicious deeds are beautiful in their eyes, they’ve taken a million steps away from virtue, they can’t recognise it and if they did they’d have to push away those thoughts or become suicidally regretful.

    Do you believe in free will btw? Or is this also part of the equation in your thinking, that people don’t really make any decisions so how can we judge them?

    Sorry im struggling to understand whatever points youre trying to make.