Jonathan HoggMy experience with generative-AI has been that, at its very best, it is subtly wrong in ways that only an expert in the relevant subject would recognise. So I don't worry about us creating super-intelligent AI, I worry about us allowing that expertise to atrophy through laziness and greed. I refuse to use LLMs not because I'm scared of how clever they are, but because I do not wish to become stupider.
I will say one thing for generative AI: since these tools function by remixing/translating existing information, that vibe programming is so popular demonstrates a colossal failure on the part of our industry in not making this stuff easier. If a giant ball of statistics can mostly knock up a working app in minutes, this shows not that gen-AI is insanely clever, but that most of the work in making an app has always been stupid. We have gatekeeped programming behind vast walls of nonsense.
dasgrueneblatt@jonathanhogg No, it's still difficult to program something so that it's exactly how you want it to be. It's apparently been underestimated how often that doesn't matter ("mostly working app" where getting it to working is more effort than starting from scratch), but we will see how that develops in the long run. Maybe plausible deniability is really enough for many things.
Nobody is gatekeeping clear, testable requirements and communication without misunderstandings. People usually just can't do that.
@dasgrueneblatt I have now spent 40 years programming commercially in dozens of different languages; I have taught programming to CS students, art students and little kids and my experience is that most programming is hard because we have made it so. I absolutely understand the frustration of people who know what their problem is, but don't feel equipped to solve it because the tools available to them are too big and confusing. Vibe coding is our own fault
@jonathanhogg Well yes, but vibe coding does not solve that, or does it? People kind of know what they want, but they still cannot get it. Just something that looks like it and is really hard to debug. That's got be even more frustrating? Maybe I misunderstood you. I'm definitely not arguing that programming (what's the other one called now? the non-vibe programming. Does it have a name yet?) is easy and fun and the tools are good, oh no.
I'm honestly very surprised by the love for chat interfaces. I don't get it. But apparently that's an amazing way to for example search the web. Not keyword -> list of links, but full question -> long answer text -> follow-up question -> even more text, etc. I thought people don't like to read long texts? But apparently the key is something in the wording. Make it say "i" and "talk" to me and add emotions.
Maybe we'll get better tools out of this in the long run? Harness the power of the ball of statistics to create not the subtly wrong full app, but parts, smaller, clearly delineated building blocks of well-known, testable code that are easy to put together to create the whole thing? Okay, that's libraries, aehm, but with a different interface? Scratch/blockly but as a chat?
@dasgrueneblatt I think you have misunderstood me: I think vibe coding is a horrendous problem, but it is a symptom of an industry failing. That people are trying to steer a tank with a speak'n'spell is because we have not made decent bikes.
@jonathanhogg That's a great picture, thank you. Yes, vibe coding as a symptom.
I need to think about this. Thank you for starting it.
Solar🌄Garden" That people are trying to steer a tank with a speak'n'spell is because we have not made decent bikes." -- if we look at the real-world situation of your metaphor, we see that when "decent bikes" ARE finally here, the establishment begins to gatekeep and legislate against them /because/ they are too effective, at overturning the status quo - ostensibly on the grounds that they are "dangerous" when in the wrong hands.
Wondering if the analogy feeds back in the other direction too.
Wolf480pl@wavesculptor
What are these "decent bikes" that were regulated away?
(Not saying there weren't any, just that I haven't been keeping track so I likely missed them.)
#eBikes -- [and #micromobility generally] --massive take-up, but this could be orders of magnitude more in countries such as UK if they were encouraged to diversify and not continually pushed-back-at as "dangerous toys".
Billy Smith@wavesculptor @wolf480pl @jonathanhogg @dasgrueneblatt
Or look at the Cat'N'Mouse games with legislation around 3d-printing firearms.
Orb 2069@wavesculptor @jonathanhogg @dasgrueneblatt
Your analogy will work both ways when people are as eager to pay their own money for AI coding as they are to buy ebikes.
As it is now, giving away AI is like trying to medicate a cat and your analogy push smells like seething cope.
@wavesculptor @jonathanhogg @dasgrueneblatt
Since you value engagement so much, here you go.
Poligofsky 🇨🇦 .. 🚫🤖@jonathanhogg It would be good to contextualize this issue.
Acquiring knowledge and skill, in any field or endeavor, is inevitably difficult. Those who came before, and did the difficult work, could, if they chose, and were extremely generous, make the road less painful, more traversible, if they took the time.
Don’t underestimate the effort and sacrifice involved in considering the needs of students! Pedagogy is hard work! And it is impeded by the curse of knowledge.
Our advanced technological society has a spotty track record, and a degree of ambivalence (trending towards hostility) towards the broad sharing of understanding. We make schools expensive. We mistreat educators. The best want to monopolize and hoard their knowledge, out of fear of competition.
It’s easy to pick on one or two things that could be better. But it’s a universal challenge.
Kevin RussellGreat writing. Verb, noun, resistance.
David Fleetwood - RG Admin@jonathanhogg @dasgrueneblatt This is a really good insight. We built a world where almost everything is run on code in some form without also prioritizing access to development. Vibe coding is a symptom of that and the gatekeepers who have kept it that way.
But it's not a solution, it makes the problem worse. The problem is what we need to address, if we really want a world driven by code, access to that code must be universal.