A quick anti-FUD FAQ to debunk "the KDE is forcing systemd!" hoax—a thread 🧵
Q: Does the Plasma Login Manager require systemd to work?
A: Yes.
Q: So you ARE forcing Plasma users to use systemd!!?!?!
A: No. The Plasma Login Manager is one of probably half a dozen Login Managers (or more) that can boot Plasma. We made PLM because it will give distro creators a cool piece of kit that can (not "must", not "should": *can*) be tacked onto a system to boot into Plasma.
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Q: So I don't have to use PLM?
A: No! You can completely ignore PLM! Please be our guest and use any of the other non-systemd dependent LMs that will work and continue to work just fine, now and in the future.
Q: Is KDE planning on making *any* of Plasma's core components dependent on systemd?
A: No.
Q: So Plasma does not and will not require systemd to work now or in the future?
A: That is correct.
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Q: And it will continue to work on non-Linux systems like FreeBSD?
A: Also correct.
Q: Why have I been hearing that KDE will force systemd down everybody's throats via Plasma then?
A: There are sad people who will do anything for attention and clicks, will spread FUD and fake controversies to obtain them, including decontextualising comments on merge requests, stating as facts and official communications what are personal opinions, and finally straight up lying.
Don't believe the FUD.
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@kde hah, I hadn't even heard of PLM requiring SystemD yet, it's good to see you folks sending out informational posts to tackle and misinterpretation and dramamongering around the subject, it does help.
As a personal note though: it doesn't necessarily have to be a 'debunk post', for people like me who haven't even heard of it yet, although I do definitely empathize as people do seem to be very eager to create drama these days.
@anthropy @kde The best/worst part is I don't even use KDE lmao! I run a heavily modified Gnome!
How is it that I, someone who has no involvement in KDE knows more about this than people making videos on the subject? Of course, the answer is clickbait/fearmongering/Anti-systemd-idiocy lol.
Ugh I hate it when people are like that.
@krutonium @kde definitely, and this is exactly what caused me to post this: https://mastodon.derg.nz/@anthropy/116069707229808301
people don't seem to realize that those ragebaity youtube/etc folk have an actual monetary incentive to sell rage, just like gossipy tabloid/news and the like. And I wish they were held to the same standard as normal journalism tbh
@anthropy @kde On the plus side, people like @BrodieOnLinux Robertson exist!
(Context for poeple who don't know Brodie: Fair videos about things happening in the Linux world without rage baiting or bullshit. Tries to look at stuff reasonably. Doesn't fearmonger.)
@krutonium @anthropy @kde @BrodieOnLinux it's a problem when you touch entitled people, they think everything must be done for them, so anti systemd user (i exclude freebsd people who had a normal concern over it), lie and manipulate to have their way.
I exept the same kind of movement when X11 will be removed from major disto / DE
@lexinova @anthropy @kde @BrodieOnLinux it's already also happening with X11, claims that this is big tech killing X11 among other conspiracy theories
No, it's not big tech, it's everyone who was maintaining X11 going "fuck alllll of that 1970s era nonsense, we can do better" lmao
(Also apparently it was a nightmare to maintain)
@krutonium @anthropy @kde @BrodieOnLinux they already did this kind of lie with secureboot, and with tpm2.
it's just grey beard that want linux to remain an elitist system.
systemd is linux now like the gnu tools are.
time for them to deal with it.
@lexinova @anthropy @kde @BrodieOnLinux SecureBoot is to be fair legitimately concerning - If Microsoft doesn't sign our bootloaders then we can't use it.
And some devices (some of the surface laptops) restrict the bootloader using secure boot so you can't put Linux on there, and it's restricted to Windows 8.1 and a random Windows 10 build.
But yeah, it's a whole lot of fear mongering and elitism.
@wbpeckham @lexinova @anthropy @kde @BrodieOnLinux Exactly, thank you!
Nobody is forcing anyone to use systemd (Personally I really like it but that's a personal decision).
@krutonium @wbpeckham @anthropy @kde @BrodieOnLinux in my case i like it because it make my job easier.
because be real, i moved to systemd-boot because it's freaking simple, more secure, have less ligne of code.
Even fedora and other have patched grub so it behave more like systemd-boot.
i hope to see, for instance systemd also take over network manager.
because more integration, and less ligne of code is better for security.
@lexinova @krutonium @wbpeckham @kde @BrodieOnLinux I'll be honest, I use SystemD and generally it works and I enjoy its centralizing simplicity, but there are plenty things about systemD that I don't like, and arguably few people will like if you truly look into it.
As security expert you might dislike the fact that it has literally a ton of purpose made 'backdoors', like actively looking for credentials in all kinds of strange places; see this whole thread for example: https://mastodon.derg.nz/@anthropy/115844354235906897
@anthropy @krutonium @wbpeckham @kde @BrodieOnLinux it's totally true, and it's why i push more to change how systemd manage those thing, more than trying to avoid systemd.
because, from when i started linux, systemd slashed trough the problem i often had on sysinit.
@lexinova @krutonium @wbpeckham @kde @BrodieOnLinux In the end, the thing that truly keeps these systems in check, is having alternatives.
There's nothing wrong with this, either, there's zero reason to force everyone to use the exact same setup everywhere, if anything that's the power of the *nix ecosystem; You don't even have to use the Linux kernel, you can literally just run e.g KDE/etc on FreeBSD kernels, and this interoperability is a great and important feature we shouldn't just discard.
@anthropy @krutonium @wbpeckham @kde @BrodieOnLinux i have nothing against alternative.
I juste don't like what do the people that are against systemd.
they use russian like move by making disinformation to push their point.
if sysinit had an upgrade that make it better than systemd, i would say nothing for an anti systemd backlash.
but here...
@wbpeckham @lexinova @anthropy @kde @BrodieOnLinux
systemd contains an init system. It also contains systemd-networkd, systemd-homed, and many more, which are different projects under the umbrella.
And while it's true that systemd-networkd isn't intended to start a system, systemd-bootd and systemd-init are - The Bootloader and Init system.
As for security, it is at least as secure as the more traditional systems from what I've seen.
@wbpeckham @krutonium @anthropy @kde @BrodieOnLinux no it does not reduce the vulnerability, but it reduce duplicated code, so if a vulnerability is found and updated it patch every single one at once.
where before you had to hope all project patch their own version of the code.
it also simplify the monitoring part for company.
but the most important part systemd have given to linux is simplicity.
because before it was a nightmare to manage.
@wbpeckham @lexinova @anthropy @kde @BrodieOnLinux
Systemd has had 15 years, and probably hundreds of billions of hours of runtime. It's doing it right. You don't largely become the default by accident.
Also you can set ForwardToSyslog=yes and just use rsyslog (or whatever you want) if you want.
That's true for basically every component of systemd.
That said, as I said before: Use what you want, they're your systems after all. I'm not trying to force you or anyone else to use it.
@wbpeckham @krutonium @anthropy @kde @BrodieOnLinux we never claimed that at all.
simply if we compare the two, systemd have more pro than con.
@wbpeckham @lexinova @anthropy @kde @BrodieOnLinux
Honestly? Because I had more issues with older systems. A lot more. But I was also newer to Linux at the time, and I don't believe I am qualified to speak on that.
Also given the scale of compute in use today vs years ago, I would put money on systemd having more overall runtime. Not that this actually matters that much.
@wbpeckham @lexinova @anthropy @kde @BrodieOnLinux
Random Note: "systemd is one application" is not true. In fact it's a collection of different applications under one umbrella, and basically all of them can be individually thrown out and your traditional or home-written version dropped in instead. It's closer to "GNU CoreUtils" in that regard; a collection of programs under an umbrella.
@wbpeckham @krutonium @anthropy @kde @BrodieOnLinux the only one that i understand the question at first was BSD since they don't run on systemd.
but majority of BSD user understood that PLM was not a hard dependency.
The worst are the one who say that SDDM is not supported anymore, proving they don't know what they are talking about since PLM use SDDM as base, and Plasma actually use and help to improve SDDM
Untitled Nerdy Chat Show - Jan 10, 2024
I was unaware he went over on Lunduke
Honestly a lot of it is self inflicted by them lmao, and I say that as someone who daily drives Gnome - I've not seen claims made by him that were false with regard to gnome developers and their actions. (This is by the way 100% an invitation to prove me wrong, I'd rather be wrong and know it than not know it, ya know?)
He also doesn't go out of his way to invite harassment that I've seen? Just relatively fair criticism (and good luck having an audience on the internet without some of them being assholes)
@krutonium @tragivictoria @anthropy @kde
Brodie Robertson has a long history of racism, transphobia and pedophilia https://kolektiva.social/@eepyk1tt3nz/114718455309529118
He has done paid promotions of Omarchy, while ignoring the controversy surrounding it's white supremacist dev. He regularly nitpicks random bugs on reddit and sends his 4channer audience to harass KDE and GNOME developers https://kolektiva.social/@eepyk1tt3nz/115368995922329750
He regularly stalls Wayland progress by harassing the volunteers working on it https://kolektiva.social/@eepyk1tt3nz/115521572000974197
Attached: 3 images · Content warning: mentions of pedophilia, incest, racism, n-word, homophobia, 'anti-SJW'+
@krutonium @tragivictoria @anthropy @kde Linux desktop developers have called his behaviour out multiple times and have burned out from the sheer amount of death threats coming their way because Brodie refuses to stop targeting them so he milks as much money as he can https://hachyderm.io/@swick/115522121627281094
Days since Brodie Robertson has blocked progress on Wayland while blaming others for doing exactly that: 0 He knows the consequences of what he does, he knows his viewers turn the threads toxic, he knows that it destroys any remaining progress, he knows that developers get harassed and receive death threats because of it. He has been told by the CoCC that this behavior is a problem. He denies any responsibility. This has been going on for years at this point. Brodie often features free software developers in his videos/podcasts, which gives him some relevance and is partially responsible for his following. So this is to my fellow developers: if you collaborate with Brodie, you are contributing to the harassment and I will hold you accountable for it.
@krutonium @anthropy @kde how is self inflicted? How did we deserved to get shit thrown at us? Have you read his comment section? And no, he is 1000% responsible for them, this is the community he gathered. Even with something as stupid as CSDs he shouted as if a GNOME dev shooted his dog.
Days since Brodie Robertson has blocked progress on Wayland while blaming others for doing exactly that: 0 He knows the consequences of what he does, he knows his viewers turn the threads toxic, he knows that it destroys any remaining progress, he knows that developers get harassed and receive death threats because of it. He has been told by the CoCC that this behavior is a problem. He denies any responsibility. This has been going on for years at this point. Brodie often features free software developers in his videos/podcasts, which gives him some relevance and is partially responsible for his following. So this is to my fellow developers: if you collaborate with Brodie, you are contributing to the harassment and I will hold you accountable for it.
@tragivictoria @anthropy @kde yeah you're right. I'm reading through it and it's a lot.
I'm sorry.
That's not okay and I'm sorry that you and anyone else has to go through that.
@kde It's not really FUD though, is it? If someone wants to run a pure KDE/Plasma system then they're going to need to use PLM. PLM requires systemd. Therefore to run a pure KDE system the user needs PLM.
The fact other login managers can be used is a workaround to the problem KDE is introducing. Pointing that out isn't FUD, it's fact. One which KDE is now trying to downplay. And is now engaged in personal attacks against developers for pointing it out.
Not a good look, KDE.
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