Blacksky has already built their own ATProto stack that's fully independent from Bluesky.
Now Eurosky is making progress as they roll out their own PDS.
I see more independent infrastructure springing up on https://atp.fyi/network, including AppViews.
For anyone hoping that we'll get another wave of people coming to the fediverse once Bluesky folds/enshittifies, that might not necessarily be the case as people will have more options to stay in the Atmosphere.
@rolle I guess if the fediverse keeps pushing people away, and ATProto gains wide enough adoption, and it becomes easy to run your whole stack, I might just look into that.
Until then, I'll have to stick with the fediverse, as that's the only truly grassroots option.
I just don't get the whole "fediverse pushing people away" angle, at all. Care to elaborate?
There are millions of users and thousands of servers on the fediverse. All kinds of people, from all over the world. It's not one homogenous mass "pushing people away" or "being unwelcoming". You just couldn't make that happen even if you tried.
@pahoittelemme Are you thinking of millions of inactive users?
https://mastodon-analytics.com
The hostility, particularly towards Black people has been well documented.
https://logicmag.io/policy/blackness-in-the-fediverse-a-conversation-with-marcia-x/
https://privacy.thenexus.today/start-making-the-fediverse-less-toxic/
Every few days there is a woman talking about the sexism on here. Seems really hard to miss this stuff.
We're probably speaking past each other.
The fediverse still isn't some homogenous blob where what you said applies universally. It's all down to individual instances and their moderators.
Granted, the largest instances probably have the worst time dealing with moderation.
But I have a hard time seeing @rolle walk past bad behaviour on the instance he runs, ditto for the org that runs my instance.
@pahoittelemme A lot of the problematic behavior is insidious, though.
Asking Black people to prove there is racism. Asking women to "just block" every single individual harasser. Telling people to "just" stop using Big Tech products. To add alt text. Not acknowledging some of the good things they're already doing and demanding perfection. Tone policing. Demanding very specific use of CWs.
All of these people are just trying to be helpful, right? Not really breaking any "rules".
@pahoittelemme Kind of a moot point. Bluesky has people. Twitter has people. So why do so few people want to be here?
You can't just attribute this to bad UX. People on Bluesky complain about not being able to edit posts, create private accounts, blocks being public, all kinds of UX problems.
It's not even an issue of having to pick a server, look at all the people who figured out that part, and now they're gone.
https://mastodon-analytics.com
Some will say that fediverse is "too complicated", but we've seen people install VPNs to get around TikTok bans and age restrictions, and now they're talking about migrating between PDSes and AppViews on Bluesky.
It's the culture here.
@stefan I don't have that grim of a sentiment that Stefan has, I'll always root for the Fediverse. However, he has a point, because in retrospect the whole reason Bluesky's ATProto was born was this:
"The AP community has always been somewhat suspicious of Bluesky, for reasons that are understandable. AP’s community is volunteer driven and the users joined to escape Twitter. So, here we come, a startup funded by Twitter, with strong opinions on how the tech should be done. I’ve heard concerns that we’d “embrace, extend, & extinguish.” I’ve heard concerns that we’d force through changes that people don’t want by dint of being a funded company. You can criticize us for going a different direction but I think it’d have been a difficult collaboration if we chose to use AP, especially since we weren’t willing to compromise on some of the decisions above."
https://github.com/bluesky-social/atproto/issues/255#issuecomment-1287953987
Also we know that if you even hint of "forbidden subjects" like using public data unconsensually open to interpretation, Artificial Intelligence, for-profit company stuff, etc. you get easily attacked here.
@rolle Yeah, I don't know, I'm not a big fan of LLMs/GenAI, but people who viciously attack each individual user one by one instead of calling their representative and demanding stricter environmental protection laws and labor laws don't come across as serious people, to say the least.
blacksky exists because many black people didn't like the culture on bluesky either. we have culture problems but everywhere does. fundamentally I think our problem is critical mass. bluesky got that for lots of reasons, but the perception of them as simpler and better search etc might go away as other AT stacks pop up.
[I think our big advantage should be that every piece of writing or AV could be an AP item, but we haven't seen much progress on that yet.]
@pahoittelemme But Bluesky didn't have celebrities either at one point.
And if they did show up here, people would just drive them away, we've seen that with popular Youtubers, for example. Or anyone who uses social media for work.
@stefan @pahoittelemme @rolle
On a slight sidetrack... looking at the numbers for bluesky it doesn't look like it's any better when it comes to users vs. active users. So a lot of people don't want to be there either.
Lies < damned lies < statistics, I know. And those mastodon analytics linked seem to be outdated as well.
@stefan @pahoittelemme @rolle I don’t see an issue with the culture here, fedi admins do a great job of having instances talk to one another blocking the bad ones but you will get some bad eggs on any server which is unavoidable unfortunately.
That’s why we have block and report tools for those bad eggs.
@justincrozer It's really not hard to look this stuff up, but okay, here you go.
https://logicmag.io/policy/blackness-in-the-fediverse-a-conversation-with-marcia-x/
https://privacy.thenexus.today/start-making-the-fediverse-less-toxic/
@stefan @pahoittelemme @rolle I did try and look it up I searched for public posts across the fediverse and couldn’t find anything that’s how I stumbled upon your post.
You shouldn’t assume someone hasn’t done something when in fact they could have and in this case have done so.
@justincrozer "searched for public posts“
There you have it. A very common attack vector has been posting a followers-only post and tagging the victim, which would prevent anyone from seeing the attack, other than the harasser and their buddies.
Also, what exactly did you search for, the N-word?
My friend, I am not impressed with your research abilities.
@stefan @pahoittelemme @rolle I was searching for how to block bluesky accounts and came across your post. I haven’t seen it or been apart of it so I’m giving you my experience.
Why are you trying to turn this into a personal attack Stefan? Just stop while you’re ahead.
@justincrozer Let's follow the conversation. You replied to my post from more than a month ago and said:
"I don’t see an issue with the culture here"
Which, frankly, after so many conversations around this topic on here, is an embarrassing way to tell on yourself. In response, I linked to two articles that cover issues with the culture here pretty thoroughly. Did you bother reading those?
(Later I realized I linked to them already in an earlier reply, so you already had a chance to read them.)
You replied "I did try and look it up", but now I am confused about what exactly it was that you tried looking up. It sounded like you were looking into claims made by Black people, hence my question about searching for the N-word.
@justincrozer If you go on Bluesky, you will find accounts of people talking about what they've dealt with on here and how they will never come back after their experience. But it sounds like you did not get to that point either?
But now you're saying: "I was searching for how to block bluesky accounts"
So I am frankly a bit confused, and I don't disagree, maybe best to drop the conversation. Last thing I'll say:
"I don’t see an issue with the culture here"
You're lucky you're not affected, and you're not looking hard enough.
@jupiter_rowland let’s clear this up for you.
Bad eggs — people who are terrible people like antisemites, nazis, transphobes, racists etc…
Mastodon culture — genuinely people on most instances are good people who are able to have intellectual conversations unless they fall under the bad egg banner.
Also a side point about over 500 characters that’s instance specific and isn’t a thing freely available across all platforms X for instance locks it behind a paywall.
@eberfreitas I think it's a combination of a more relaxed audience on there, and tools for managing harassment, like reply controls.
I'm sure there's plenty of harassment on there, just like there has been on Twitter. But at least you can lock your replies when things get out of hand, and move on.
I hope these get implemented some day:
https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/issues/8565
https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/issues/14762
@eberfreitas Yes, plus apparently reply controls are already part of the protocol, just no implemented in Mastodon.
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