Larry GarfieldI may regret this at some point, but I felt the need to put down in writing how I feel about this moment in the tech industry.
It is not kind. You may well be insulted by it. If you are... then you really should question yourself.
krig@Crell Here's something that rubs me the wrong way: "At some point soon, I will have to figure out how to work with AI coding tools" - No, you don't. That's a choice you are making. In the end, you are making the same choice as those who say "It is what it is". You choose personal convenience over your convictions. Someone has to be the first to refuse. Someone has to be the one to shoulder the burden. What makes you think that someone isn't you?
Justin Macleod@krig @Crell While I don't disagree, that's a huge ask. If someone does a thing to pay the bils and everyone else is doing that thing faster with AI, those "convictions" could land them and their family without pay or benefits. That's a big gun to stare down the barrel of. That's the fear. That's what needs to be addressed. It may well be a false narrative, time will tell, but it's a big leep of faith to ask anyone to take.
@JustinMac84 @Crell First off, other people are already losing their jobs regardless of the choices they make personally, so to even have a choice puts them in a privileged position. Second, what are their principles worth if all it takes is to threaten with hypothetical (not real) joblessness? How about making an attempt at a principled stance before caving in? Third, the whole point of the article is that he looks down on those choosing personal convenience over conviction, yet here he is doing the same.
Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷@krig @JustinMac84 @Crell Yes - but also "not quite".
We'd be asking an individual to shoulder a systemic problem.
I respect everyone who makes that choice (if they feel they can without existential risks; or *despite* existential risks).
But that doesn't address the systemic problem.
That's why strikes aren't an individual refusing to work; but individuals unionizing and *collectively* protesting.
And why we regulate and legislate and organize.
@larsmb @JustinMac84 @Crell I don’t know if I agree. It feels like an easy cop-out. If every problem is systemic, surely there is no individual responsibility at all then? I think it is reasonable to say that if you are going to rant about someone elses individual choices you should be honest to yourself about the choices available to you.
@krig @JustinMac84 @Crell No. There are individual choices (and IMNSHO, obligations): organizing, voting, using one's platform, or at least *somehow* contributing towards collective action.
Given that we all kinda have to eat and pay for housing because capitalism, and possibly have non-obvious setups, asking someone to make a decision that has a significant risk of ruining their individual livelihood is a tough sell.
Organizing is how we get out of the prisoner's dilemma.
@larsmb @JustinMac84 @Crell I am not asking them to make a different choice (that is up to them. I make choices for myself). I am asking them to state clearly that they are making the choice, and not frame it as ”I have no choice”.
@krig @JustinMac84 @Crell Ah, that's indeed fair and a good requirement. (I think.)
Though holding that cognitive dissonance in one's head is not necessarily always healthy either (ask my therapist about it, because I can't *not*), especially when (it feels like) they have no *realistic* choice.
But yes, I'm also a strong advocate for at least admitting the situation we're in.
@larsmb @JustinMac84 @Crell I’ll also concede that this topic is not great for my own mental health, but I feel like so many of us are far too quick to jump to helplessness when widespread refusal (a strike if you will) would make a real difference.
@krig I feel that.
I've been wrestling a lot with that in the last 12 months in particular, and am still trying to fully make up my mind.
Neal Gompa (ニール・ゴンパ) 
@larsmb @krig As a self-employed freelance software engineer, this has been the crux of my struggle for the last couple of years.
What do I do? I love "solutioning", but I worry about losing the ability to do it. I also need to pay my bills, and if I can't produce well enough and fast enough, I'm basically toast.
It's really easy for people who have regular, stable incomes and a built-in long-term career to make judgements about stuff like this, but it's extremely hard for folks like me.
@krig @larsmb @JustinMac84 I am no stranger to collective action. I'm on the board of a voting reform NFP in my state.
There was a time where a conscientious dissenter could just not shop at Amazon.com. But because so many didn't care, it's now "use AWS or don't use the Internet."
Telling someone "OK, so just don't use the Internet" is not helpful. If we want to engage in society, we have to have some shared tools. Even if those tools are shit.
@krig @larsmb @JustinMac84 Are AI tools at the level of AWS yet? Or are they "only" Facebook (which I do still avoid)? Or are they Twitter?
I don't know. But the more people say "it is what it is," the more AWS-y they become.
And even if you don't host your site on AWS, half of the sites you visit today are on a hard drive owned by Amazon.
@krig @larsmb @Crell I read that kind of thing with extra words. "I have to do this thing [if I want to survive/if I don't want to run unacceptable risk of plunging myself and those I love into poverty]." Perhaps they would do better to word it as "I am prohibitively afraid that, if I don't do this thing, I will suffer to an unacceptable degree." "I have no choice" I read as "I have no choice if I don't want to lose my livelihood"
@krig @JustinMac84 @larsmb I am currently unemployed. I fear it is.
Which is better for my family, leaving tech after 25 years and starting over, or finding some way to use a little AI and try to minimize the negative externalities enough to assuage my guilt?
That is literally the debate I'm having with myself on a daily basis right now.
@krig @JustinMac84 @Crell I think it's somewhat similar to other (eventually successful) processes.
Consider smoking bans in restaurants.
Every individual restaurant initially faced severe losses of revenue. Individuals not joining their colleagues or friends faced social disconnects. Many thus didn't.
However, as a society, we gave ourselves new collective rules.
acetone_kitten@larsmb
@krig @JustinMac84 @Crell
this. thank you. most ppl do not have power or even much of a voice over our working conditions. devs have _some_ but y'all are being proletarianized, brought down to the level where things are by and large imposed on workers.
organizing for collective power, which we wield to impose _consequences_ on our _enemies_ who own everything but build nothing, is not just the only way out, it's the only real way to even slow the rate of immiseration & destruction.
@acetone_kitten @krig @JustinMac84 @Crell There's a massive opposition to unionizing in the tech world.
It's either "oh my god if we try we'll all be laid off" (and the jobs moved to other countries without unions) or "I'm better off negotiating on my own, unions are for the poor".
@larsmb
@krig @JustinMac84 @Crell absolutely. huge self inflicted wound here and a classic blunder by privileged strata of workers in the imperial core.
however, i can imagine that there might be a better organizational form than a traditional labor union for this, altho idk what that form would be. but it has to be able to impose some kind of consequence on the bosses, and not, for instance, simply beg the state to impose such consequences.
@acetone_kitten @krig @JustinMac84 @Crell I am not sure there is a better organizational form.
A dedicated labor union for tech workers sounds like a most excellent starting point. (Or joining an existing one, they often accommodate various industries after all.)
(Though it's important to also keep international solidarity in mind.)
@larsmb @krig @JustinMac84 @Crell
a labor union sounds good, but the existing ones in the US may not be good models. idk if things are different in Germany, but in America, the route to formal recognition and collective bargaining has the bones of countless labor struggles strewn along its path. in this, it does what it's designed to do. this is a big part of what stalled the Starbucks unionization drive.
a labor union sounds good, but the existing ones in the US may not be good models. idk if things are different in Germany, but in America, the route to formal recognition and collective bargaining has the bones of countless labor struggles strewn along its path. in this, it does what it's designed to do. this is a big part of what stalled the Starbucks unionization drive.
@acetone_kitten @krig @JustinMac84 @Crell In Germany, it's easy to join an existing union.
Getting enough of your colleagues to join though for that to have a real impact in your company though is a different question ...
bædling, lost in the moss@larsmb @krig @JustinMac84 @Crell the entire blog post is about how people are individually responsible for choosing to use it even in the broader context tho? Like it's 100% hypocritical to end it with "and so anyways I'm using llms too, but you should all be ashamed of yourself for making that choice"
@raine @larsmb @JustinMac84 @krig The early adopters force later adopters. See also, the Amazon, FB, etc. examples.
Every time someone else says "it is what it is," I am forced closer to conforming or bailing on my entire industry. *That* is what pisses me off.
@krig @Crell I think, to say "Pfft. You're weighing the risks and choosing, because you're genuinely worried about the impact your choices might have on your ability to provide for your family? What a sell-out!" is quite holier than thou and self-righteous. If you make the jump and find out after it all goes wrong that it went wrong, it's too late, the damage is done. Weighing risks and giving weight to your obligations when making a decision is not wrong.
@JustinMac84 @Crell You are arguing against something I never said. I think saying ”I will have to use it ” is a cop-out. Be honest. Say ”I am making the choice because the personal cost to refuse is too great for me”. Do that, and realize that you and those you criticise are the same. Then think about what it will take to break out of the spiral of rational individual choices with negative systemic effects. Who, if not you, will sacrifice themselves?
@krig @JustinMac84 Quoting the article: "But, at this point, it's become obvious that I have to either compromise on that, or leave tech entirely. And every time I think about that, I get angry."
Every time someone else says "it is what it is," it makes it harder for me NOT to. *That* is the problem. Every "it is what it is" forces me to choose between my daughter's present and my daughter's future, which is an agonizing choice.
@Crell @JustinMac84 I am in the same position. I too have a daughter and worry for what the world she will grow up in will look like. I am also increasingly angry. I’m sorry to have taken some of that anger out on you.
Piggleston Pecanpants@JustinMac84 Meanwhile they could be learning something else in their free time that will be minimumly affected by A.I. so if the hammer comes down they have an option to turn to. It's not all or nothing. @krig @Crell
@LilPecan @JustinMac84 @krig Quoting the article: "But, at this point, it's become obvious that I have to either compromise on that, or leave tech entirely. And every time I think about that, I get angry."
Leaving my field and starting over from scratch while I have a small child at home is... a large ask.
@Crell @JustinMac84 @krig Yes. I had a job that was ethically questionable and faced the same dilemma. All I'm suggesting is you might use part of your nights and weekends to learn something different, something AI resistant, to have as a backup when this all falls apart. Also, by being productive in an unfamiliar arena, it may distract you and lessen your angst. You'll be doing something positive to educate yourself instead of just letting guilt wash over you.
@LilPecan @JustinMac84 @krig You seem to be under the impression that the hammer hasn't come down yet. I'm currently unemployed, at a super-senior level. The hammer is here.
*Nothing* is AI resistant that pays worth a damn.
@Crell @JustinMac84 @krig And that's also a problem related to the big picture of why this is happening: greed. If people would rather buy cheap crap from exploited, impoverished countries then your wood workers, leather smiths, jewelers and other manual artists, that can't be replaced by AI, can't afford to survive. So kiss artistry and beauty goodbye. That's the world silicone valley wanted and got.
@LilPecan @JustinMac84 @krig As a hobbyist woodworker, bladesmith, and leatherworker, I can confirm.
Some of the absolute best bladesmiths on the planet, that make absolutely gorgeous works of art, make good money but less than I made in my last 2 jobs as an engineer. And I am not as good an engineer as they are blade artists.
@Crell @JustinMac84 @krig See? So you're not a one trick pony. Those are all skills that hold great value for when the end of the world arrives. When the manufacturing plants shut down because there is no more water and the world is on fire, you'll last longer than many.
@LilPecan @JustinMac84 @krig I have long joked that I got into bladesmithing so that when civilization falls I can become an arms dealer.
Unfortunately, most modern crafting still relies on heavy machinery making the inputs. (Bladesmithing is the most independent, leather the least.)
@Crell @LilPecan @JustinMac84 my current plan is to grow potatoes and hops to trade bootleg booze with Immortan Joe and his crew when they show up
@krig @Crell @JustinMac84 Seems like a sound plan. I wonder if I can interest Joe in any of my leather liquor flasks?
Marianne@noodlemaz @Crell @krig @LilPecan Manual labour, hospitality that is face to face. Anything that needs a pair of hands and can't be done remotely by a bot pretending to be a person.
@JustinMac84 @noodlemaz @krig @LilPecan I'm a mid 40s programmer with a small child to feed. 80% pay cut is not really viable.
@Crell @noodlemaz @krig @LilPecan that was my point yesterday. It's all very well people saying stamp your foot and try to stem the tide, possibly by yourself, at least where you are, anything less is complicity, but when you have a family to look out for, tain't so simple.
@Crell @krig @LilPecan @JustinMac84 ah yes so many jobs going in those areas
Hospitality isn't suffering or anything
Sure my PhD will come in handy there too
@noodlemaz @Crell @krig @JustinMac84 You wouldn't be the first bartender with a PhD. If you can get into a fine dining establishment you will be surprised at what you can earn.
El Duvelle@elduvelle @krig @Crell Because companies have made "AI adoption rates" part of the corporate goals, and thus resisting / opposing it is an actual job-loss level risk.
Some individuals can take it, or are principled enough to; not everyone can, especially those marginalized and/or with care obligations.
But, prospective employers don't need to know what techniques you use to do your coding, right? If you plan your code architecture with pen and paper, or use a genAI to plan it (...) isn't the output the thing that matters: is the code well-written, does it work, is it well documented and easy to update / fix?
Could you just lie and say that you use genAI if it makes them happy, but actually not use it, would they even see the difference?
Stephen John Anderson@elduvelle @krig @Crell Employers do measure and observe AI use. You're often required to not *only* use company approved tools (for compliance reasons), but to *use* company approved tools.
They *would* know.
Being caught in a lie would also not be great.
(And there's the unfortunate fact that, for certain applications and subjects, GenAI *is* a productivity boost, so one would fall behind in an externally observable manner.)
Allan Svelmøe Hansen@elduvelle @larsmb @krig @Crell
Unfortunately - output alone is not the only factor. Speed/velocity could be another ranked high, whereas correctness might not rank as high.
Multiple such factors exists.
Usually it comes down to cost/benefit.