SnoopJ
thinking about how there's a true solution to the trolley problem and union workers were the ones to point it out
Jan 30 at 12:41amWeb
Show threadSnoopJJan 30

like, one might be tempted to say "noooo it's a constructed hypothetical that only admits these two options"

but there's something really lovely about a union coming in and being like "ah, no, a different world is possible"

Show threadSnoopJJan 30
Glad y'all like the theme, muting this now that it's escaped containment and the tedious "well actually" killjoys have arrived
Show threadElfDestructJan 30
@SnoopJ The Kobayashi Maru solution should always be a valid choice!
Show threadColorblind CowboyJan 30

@SnoopJ This is why I don’t like hypotheticals. I have too many questions and constantly look to other solutions.

And people reply “IT’S HYPOTHETICAL” like it’s some law of god.

Show threadSven Slootweg, low-spoons mode ("still kinky and horny anyway")Jan 31
@colorblindcowboy @SnoopJ I find that often when people respond like that, what actually happened is that they were trying to prove a point based on their own beliefs, were caught out by learning that there are actually other ways to look at things that they hadn't considered, and desperately try to re-scope the conversation to the options they had considered so that they can continue believing what they believe...
Show threadColorblind CowboyJan 31
@joepie91 I think you’re exactly right.
Show threadKathmanduJan 30

@SnoopJ

Yes! The union answer is a valid solution because it's generalizable!

* The system is run by people who only understand the broad outlines. Front-line workers understand it in more detail.
* The problem is framed by people with an agenda. If you look outside their framework, you can apply relevant knowledge to derail their agenda.

Show threadDibsJan 30
@SnoopJ I refuse these two options! The correct answer is "doing nothing". Miliions of people die everyday without my intervention and I don't feel guilty about it!
Show threadJohanna JaniszewskiJan 31
@SnoopJ if life has told me anything, its that it is dangerous to not think further than 2 presented options
Show threadDan PiponiJan 30
@SnoopJ The Kobayashi Maru approach
Show threadSnoopJJan 30
@dpiponi yes! simply reject the premise of the test 🤘
Show threadClass WarioJan 30
@SnoopJ @dpiponi as in war games tic Tac toe (and 2026), only way to not lose is to quit playing
Show threaddisorderlyfJan 30
@SnoopJ The Metaphor Problem: You need to be able to describe abstract concepts to uneducated persons, so you use a metaphor to explain it. But then some of those people take the metaphor literally and try to figure out how to resolve it as if it were a literal situation. It's not yet been determined if this is avoidable, since doing so would require a metaphor that applies down to the most minute details possible.
Show threadPasswordsarehard4Jan 30
@disorderlyf @SnoopJ ending up with a metaphor so specifically described it’s just narrating the current conditions.
Show threadKathmanduJan 30

@disorderlyf

The solution given here is a concrete example of the general approach (find the aspects of the system that you know more about than the bosses do; use those aspects to subvert their plans), same as the trolley is an example of a more general class of problem.

@SnoopJ

Show threadRoger MooreJan 30
@disorderlyf @SnoopJ
The problem is that the metaphor adds extra details that complicate the basic moral question. Either those details are important, in which case you can't fault people for considering them, or they are unimportant, in which case the metaphor is flawed for including them.
Show threadSenilJan 30
@SnoopJ how do we know this wouldn't happen, though?
Show threadphilippJan 30

@senil @SnoopJ the first thing that came to my mind. "Kill'em all approach".

Tbf, this is not possible with a shirt trolley, but with a longer railway waggon....

Show threadHabrokJan 30
@senil @SnoopJ This is also a valid solution: "If you cause the death of someone, at least leave no witnesses."
Show threadSpace Catitude 🚀Jan 30

@SnoopJ

What I particularly love about this is that it completely works as a metaphor as well:

The true solution when you face a "trolley problem" in real life is to study more detail to find additional options. Because no real world situation is ever this binary.

Show threadGraham DownsJan 30

@TerryHancock @SnoopJ I think that's why the hypothetical thought experiment has such urgency built into it. Decide now! Flip the switch or not. Push the fat man or not. Tick tock. Tick tock.

A similar tactic to that used by phishers. And the response is the same: "Nothing is that urgent. Stop. Breathe. Think."

Show threadRoger MooreJan 30
@GrahamDowns @TerryHancock @SnoopJ
Of course sometimes people really do have to make snap decisions. One of the ways we can improve our quick decision making is to consider possible cases in detail in advance so we're ready when they come up. That said, we should be more generous judging people forced to make quick decisions.
Show threadGraham DownsJan 30

@TerryHancock @SnoopJ @VATVSLPR that's true.

I had a minister once who used to say, "There as nothing so prepared as an off the cuff response."

Obviously he was talking about something else, but I guess that translates here: "There is nothing so prepared as a snap decision."

It makes sense to at least give some thought to what you might do if you were ever so unlucky as to find yourself in a position like this, so that if it were to happen, you at least have some idea on which to base your decision. Even if you can never FULLY prepare yourself for something like this.

Show threadRoger MooreJan 30
@GrahamDowns @TerryHancock @SnoopJ
It's more about being able to make decisions effortlessly than quickly. The idea is to know what to do in a plausible but unfamiliar situation so we don't get overwhelmed by the moment. It's used for all kinds of training, not just ethical questions. It's why people like firefighters and soldiers train so much; they want to be able to respond correctly even when they're under enormous stress.
Show threadGraham DownsJan 31
@TerryHancock @SnoopJ @VATVSLPR yeah, I also thought about something like learning to use a firearm and preparing yourself for the possibility of having to point it at another human being and pull the trigger. All sorts of things like that. Preparing yourself for situations that you hope will never come up, and if you're lucky will never come up, but if they DO come up, you need to be able to react... Effortlessly, as you say. :-)
Show threadMieli LuukinenJan 30
@TerryHancock @SnoopJ the first part I saw of this toot, and the whole discussion, was the last sentence. I immediately associated it with the argument "nothing in nature is binary" in gender discourse. After the rest of the toot made its way to my brain, I concluded: "trolley problem" would be such a fabulous gender for a person to have. I will have to consider adding it next to the one I just announced.
Show threadScott MichaudJan 30
@SnoopJ "There is one person on board the trolly" the question giver says, grinning ear-to-ear.
Show threadSnoopJJan 30

@scottmichaud they might get a bruise, but I'll take it!

Relatedly, in looking this image up again, I saw someone frame the trolley problem as "you are ON a trolley..." which is an impressive level of misunderstanding of both the problem and how switches work

Show threadScott MichaudJan 30
@SnoopJ Or they played Star Fox 64.
Show threadSnoopJJan 30
@scottmichaud a level well loved by score runners for its many shootable objects!
Show threadScott MichaudJan 30
@SnoopJ Oh hey it turns 29 in a couple months. Neat.
Show threadMorgan ⚧️Jan 31
@SnoopJ @scottmichaud that's how they did it on The Good Place lol, they were inside the trolley and the switch was too 🥴
Show threadZenHeathen 🇨🇦Jan 30

@SnoopJ The real solution to the trolley problem is to understand that it's not a problem, in the sense that it's presented.

You are given two options, both of which suck. But *you* didn't set this situation up. This situation is *the system*, and you are being told you're responsible for the outcome. You are not. Since only your hand is close enough to the lever, you can make a difference, but the fact that the problem exists in the first place, and therefore any outcome, is the responsibility of The System, not you. The System tries to make you think it's about you, that it's your fault this is happening, that whoever dies, it's on you. It is not. Don't believe what The System is telling you. You may be forced to live within it, but its evil outcomes are not truly your responsibility. The right answer is that, whatever you choose to do with that lever, proceed to work to dismantle The System that put those people on the track and sent the trolley toward them in the first place.

Show threadWilliam OldwinJan 30
@ZenHeathen @SnoopJ This is really reminiscent of Bernard Williams. He had a lot to say about morality, almost all of it negative, but he particularly detested the inescapability and ubiquity of the obligation it imposes on everybody. Morality says that if you're at that lever you are *obligated* to choose who to save. It's on you. Williams called bullshit.
Show thread⁂ Fish Id WardrobeJan 31
@ZenHeathen @SnoopJ
original artist unknown, sorry.
Show threadZenHeathen 🇨🇦Jan 31
@fishidwardrobe Yes! @SnoopJ
Show threadKnut 🏳️‍🌈 🇳🇴🧸Jan 31
@fishidwardrobe @ZenHeathen @SnoopJ In SLC, UT, where I lived for 6 years - I'm from SW Wyoming - the city has light rail. And when it's snaking through the city, it's very slow. A child on their knees goes faster. But to get to the southern suburbs, it goes down this corridor that follows I-15, and these trains just high-ball it down this corridor. But there is this one point with a street intersection, that we call "suicide point". Because there has been a lot of this kind of stuff there
Show threadZenHeathen 🇨🇦Jan 31
@praetor 😬 @fishidwardrobe @SnoopJ
Show threadMy camera shoots fascistsJan 30

@SnoopJ

I love this. Lateral thinking, in this case by very practically minded people who understand the real world mechanics, allows for the rejection of a problem set up by someone who has some hidden agenda.

If presented with two bad choices, pick the third.

Show threadHippo 🍉Jan 30

@Mikal I couldn't resist!

(I can share the SVG source if anyone wants to remix. The font is Almendra)

@SnoopJ

Show threadStrypeyJan 31

@Mikal
> If presented with two bad choices, pick the third

According to Hakim Bey there's an old Jewish proverb along these lines. I read that in one of his TAZ essays in the late 1990s and it totally changed my thinking. Not only about ethics and morality, but also about decision-making and problem-solving.

@SnoopJ
@badrihippo

Show threadMy camera shoots fascistsJan 31

@strypey @SnoopJ @badrihippo

I seem to recall that being some graffiti from Paris in 1968 as well.
It really is a good little mind hack to force you to try to look at something from a completely different angle.

Show threadNeil E. HodgesJan 30
@SnoopJ
Show threadsiderealJan 30
@SnoopJ And we know it works, too, because this is how old-timey train robbers got it done in the steam era
Show threadSearingTruthJan 30

@SnoopJ

"Which came first?

Working people or rich masters?"
SearingTruth

Show threadcroutonJan 30
@SnoopJ what i love most about this is the smile and the thumbs up on the guy operating the switch
Show threadSnoopJJan 30
@crouton their union card says "don't panic" on the back, I bet
Show threadUnion WhoreJan 30

@SnoopJ @crouton Actually it has the preamble of the IWW on the back:

"The working class and the employing class have nothing in common. There can be no peace as long as hunger and want are found among millions of working people and the few, who make up the employing class, have all the good things of life. ..."

Show threadKlaus FrankJan 30

@SnoopJ

Isn't that the same thing all of the "drift the trolley across both tracks to hit everyone" are suggesting?

Show threadSnoopJJan 30
@agowa338 only in a world where manga physics apply
Show threadKlaus FrankJan 30

@SnoopJ

On the other hand, they're bound to the tracks so close to the switching point that derailing it right there could also cause it to tip over and land on all of them...

Show threadBeccaJan 30

@agowa338 an ideal solution if it takes out people who pose trolley problems

@SnoopJ

Show threadKlaus FrankJan 30

@bweller @SnoopJ

As if the people proposing it would be chained to the track.

They're standing where the picture is being taken from...

Show threadBeccaJan 30

@agowa338 we're gonna need a bigger train

@SnoopJ

Show threadSimon BrookeJan 30

@agowa338 @SnoopJ That depends on

1. the speed and weight of the trolley;
2. the separation of the tracks;
3. the articulation of the bogies.

If it's running at the speed of, say, the new Ontario light rail line, no one will get hurt because it's running too slow to fall over and will just stop in a short distance. If it's a Shinkansen, you've got problems.

But the unionised workers on the ground know which it is and can act appropriately

#Syndicalism

Show threadKlaus FrankJan 30

@simon_brooke @SnoopJ

If you want to over analyse it you could also have the issue that the track does not allow being changed once a part of the train passed over it until it fully cleared again...

Show threadOwl EyesJan 30
@SnoopJ yay!