TerrorJacktyl
TottsSome of you are too young to remember when we found the 'black gold' in the North Sea ....
Knut 🏳️🌈 🇳🇴🧸@Geri As someone looking to immigrate there, it is really a cool system. The important things the government controls, but there is still a lot of room for fun innovative things. Norwegians are fearless because they can try new things, and if they fail, they fail. It's not the end of the world. It's just money. It's paper. People don't starve because of failure. If they will starve because of failure, then government controls it.
Alex@rtnVFRmedia Suffolk UKI remember learning from a friend who lived in Scandinavia why Norway didn't join EU, is to a great extent because they didn't want to be forced into neoliberal policies of privatisation (but they still contribute to all socially beneficial parts of EU, even stuff like counting wildlife and spend their taxpayers money on this without too much drama, whereas even when UK was in EU many folk resented every penny spent on the social aspects (but still wanted the "Common Market" so their businesses could make money
@vfrmedia @Geri I've yet to have any of my Norwegian friends complain about costs and taxes. And it's not like austere soviet Russia, they drive fun cars that are all different, and are very individualistic. But not at the cost of wellness towards others. They like having money for fun stuff, but they also don't want people dieing from lack of basic necessities. The nordic model really does prove you can have have your cake and eat it too
Huntn00@praetor @vfrmedia @Geri In comparison the failure of the capitalist system in the US, some of Europe and the rest of the World, anyplace where humans can horde at the expense of others.
Agree to allow humans to become $$$ gluttons, they will, and will then manufacture all manner of excuses, as to why they deserve it blind to the instability their hoarded wealth contributes to the society they live within. 🤔
Agree to allow humans to become $$$ gluttons, they will, and will then manufacture all manner of excuses, as to why they deserve it blind to the instability their hoarded wealth contributes to the society they live within. 🤔
@Huntn00 @vfrmedia @Geri Ive honest never understood money hoarding. My mother does that. We as humans are a pro-social species. Just like many other social mammals. And not doing what is fundamentally good for the entire collective is counter to how we are biologically. This capitalism, hustle culture sort of thing is very new in our evolution - within the last 2000 years. We're predominantly a tribe, or clan species like most big apes are. It's so counterintuitive
@Huntn00 @vfrmedia @Geri oh I'm an '82 vintage, and my parents are beyond success obsessed. I can't tolerate either one of them. I live with my 80 year old grandmother, and she's got that "it's great if you have it, and if you do, spend it, that's what it's for. But it's not the whole of existence". But you're right, I remember the 80s being really greed focused.
su_liam@praetor @Geri In a piece of science fiction I’m working on(not really a story, not quite an RPG world, maybe best described as an act of autism), the Union of Popular Commonwealths has a particular form of democratic socialism. It’s socialist but without state-owned enterprises. The People don’t own the means of production.
@praetor @Geri Each particular firm is wholly owned and organized by its employees and they compete in a market that is mildly regulated by a democratic government(which is of, for and mostly by The People).
This is making me think that certain “natural monopolies” should be owned and operated by The People.
@su_liam @Geri if we're talking the Nordic Model, they aren't monopolies per se. They are private for-profit corporations, and the are several of them, but they are managed by the government, and they pay obligatory taxes at very high rate which goes into the social security system. They're almost like your power company. Its capitalism on a very tight leash is what it is.
Chris Real"People don't starve because of failure . . ."
Oh, it's the same here in the U.S.—if you're rich to begin with.
Thank you for giving us an example of a good thing that exists and is real. Maga only promises things that they say are GOING to happen, if ONLY we all BELIEVE. In two weeks!!
@_chris_real @Geri There have been some really cool Norwegian companies that have succeeded (Vivaldi, and Jolacloud are two), and some flaming cat turds too. As long as you pay back your creditors, the government is like "hey, Norwegian ingenuity can't win all the time. Better luck next time" and some try again. With the same people. It's not devestating. Progress is iterative, but progress should always be beneficial regardless. Not destructive.
@_chris_real @Geri Yup! Vivaldi is a Norwegian company.
@_chris_real @Geri Europe has a history spanning thousands and thousands of years. They've been through it all - some have learned the lessons better than others. But the US is only 250 years old. HM King Harald has jewelry older than that! This is a teenage rebellion phase for us. The US doesn't have a clearly defined culture like European countries do. We're "finding ourselves" like a teenager would.
@_chris_real @Geri Just kinda wish we were going through a cool goth phase and not a Nazi skinhead phase though....
Not to be argumentative, but as countries go, we are the oldest DEMOCRACY since the Greeks (who were only democratic to a point).
Upon encountering a nihilist who is simply treating the U.S. as an asset he needs to liquidate to weaken to allow him to make his qetaway, future leaders need to make MASSIVE revisions to the deeply flawed U.S. constitution, or accept the fact that we are a legacy government ripe for raiding.
@_chris_real @Geri I don't think the Constitution is flawed as much as the style of government that it is dictating is. Republicanism is a failed system of government. Parliamentary systems are far better, and have consistently shown to be less corrupt. I think the American experiment of a federal republic is a failure, not necessarily the document guiding it.
My view:
1) the founders were deeply against rule by political parties. Yet here we are.
2) The Electoral College is no longer a solution for anything. We will remain a democratic farce until it is abolished.
3) Gerrymandering is a direct result of clever racists gaming the Electoral College. So . . .
4) Slavery was never REALLY abolished, with that short phrase " . . . EXCEPT as a condition of involuntary servitude" in the amendment purporting to END slavery. So now our slavery is corporate.
Nothing will change until these wrongs have been righted.
agnivesh@Geri there are definitely real issues with how privatisation was handled in the UK, but this graphic really exaggerates the comparison with Norway. Reuters did a fact-check on a similar version of it a while back.
Wm.son
Jeff Bronks
Kenner
Juho MäntysaloThe North Sea oil fields are shared between several states, so it isn't the difference between UK and Norway.
Bigger part, imho, is how a former officer of the British Iraq Petroleum Company named Farouk al-Kasim moved to Norway due to his son needing treatment for cerebral palsy.
He applied for a position at the ministry of industry at the same time as the Fields were found, and ended up drafting almost singlehandedly the Sovereign Fund, which he hoped to solve the Resource Curse.
The above, btw, should pretty much be the ur-reason for the Nordic model.
Even with only barely profitable fishing industry, Norway had created a health care sector that drew a rich executive of a major company to abandon his career, and move to a place with less than welcoming climate. This led to Norway having the know-how to avoid the Resource Curse, pretty much the only country to do so.
In other words: high Gini may create nice palaces, but it doesn't ensure healthy people.
Also worth saying that high Gini also creates high class borders, which means the ultrarich feel more loyal to their global clique than they do to their own homeland.
(This is what the "we'll move if taxed" actually boils down to. Also the classic "how do we stop the guards from killing us at the nuclear bunker" -dilemma.)
Low Gini leads more connections between classes, which leads to higher loyalty to your society, which leads to acceptance of higher taxes.
Su_G@iju
😁🙏🏻 Fascinating bit of history, completely unknown to me - & thank you for adding more info & tying it to the artefacts of high/low Gini. I’ve heard it said that Chinese leaders get nervous as Gini approaches 1 (max. inequality - see the Wiki entry below). Do you know anything about that? 🤔
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient
Alas, I know nothing about Chinese reality. Though in general having heard a few months back that they are on parity on child malnourishment with the States*, they get some points from me.
Might be worth saying that Gini is an useful tool, but not perfect. A state may in many ways limit how money can be used. For example, what does it mean to own land: can you fence it? Or build on it, sell it?
_
* After being rised with "eat all your food, there are Chinese going hungry to bed".
The problems with inequality are also many, and they don't have to all be true at the same time.
Generally most things that have actual value (and not just "value") are limited: i.e. with land: in "good place", or "next to the lake", etc. The first problem with inequality is that someone may build a mansion on an area that might/should house hundreds...
Second is the danger of politicians getting dependant on the oligarchs for money, and less on their constituents...
...and to round it up at three, more inequal countries tend to have lower GDP growth. In general, to rise GDP, you need to create more efficiency. That in turn needs access education, AND time and incentive to popularisation.
For example, the three people who saved the Finnish elevator-company KONE only got a small one-time bonus on their monthly salary for an innovation that revolutionised the field.
(There are other reasons, but let's not make this an essay :))
Audun@iju @Geri no, he didn't draft the Sovereign Fund, he drafted the rules for how to manage the oil (where the state takes nearly 70 percent of the profit). The Sovereign Fund is an invention of Jens Stoltenberg and neoliberal excuse to not leave the oil in the ground for future generations (but instead leaving them some stocks).
Don Thompson@iju @Geri
That graphic is woefully inaccurate. While ‘oil’ is predominantly found in the northern part of North Sea, UK & Norwegian sectors, Norway also has significant resources in the Norwegian Sea. Surprisingly, most countries bordering these seas openly publish a wealth of information & GIS resources about O&G resources.
That graphic is woefully inaccurate. While ‘oil’ is predominantly found in the northern part of North Sea, UK & Norwegian sectors, Norway also has significant resources in the Norwegian Sea. Surprisingly, most countries bordering these seas openly publish a wealth of information & GIS resources about O&G resources.
fathermucker@Geri 10 trillion pounds seemed a little over the top so I poked around and sure enough... https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/norway-does-not-have-wealth-equivalent-10-trillion-british-pounds-per-citizen-2024-11-05/
@fathermucker @Geri
It seems about right to me. Their fund is 1.7 tn. Scale that up by the ratio of populations of the two countries and you get about 10 tn.
It seems about right to me. Their fund is 1.7 tn. Scale that up by the ratio of populations of the two countries and you get about 10 tn.
Toni M.
Andreas K
Phil Thane ✅@Geri
I'm sure it's coincidental but many of the 'entrepreneurs' who extracted a lot of money from privatised industries are major donors to the Conservative party. And probably to all those 'think tanks' that refuse to disclose who funds them.
I'm sure it's coincidental but many of the 'entrepreneurs' who extracted a lot of money from privatised industries are major donors to the Conservative party. And probably to all those 'think tanks' that refuse to disclose who funds them.
Padjo@Geri Some other stats. Norway has 3 times the oil reserves, 14 times smaller the population, and enough hydro power resources that they can export almost all their oil.
Bruno Nicoletti
Paul Lockett@Geri I'd argue that, in this case, the differentiator isn't privatisation but that, in the UK, if we'd had a sovereign wealth fund, the boomers would have voted to sell it off to get a temporary reduction in tax, rather than holding it as a long term investment.
Peter Brown@Geri no debt? Before the oil started to flow the UK had to go for a bailout to the IMF.
The UK was bankrupt.
No wonder Westminster doesn’t want to shut the oil off because they realise the UK will be bankrupt once again because they’ve pissed it all up against the wall wall, unlike Norway.
The UK was bankrupt.
No wonder Westminster doesn’t want to shut the oil off because they realise the UK will be bankrupt once again because they’ve pissed it all up against the wall wall, unlike Norway.
The sterling crisis was in 1976
My post references
Ekofisk field (1969) in the Norwegian sector and the massive Forties field (1970)
@Geri yes those discoveries were gamechangers. But they only actually started to flow just after Denis Healy and the labour government lost the election.
Margaret Thatcher’s golden handshake was the oil flowing into her coffers. Denis Healy was quoted as saying that if the oil had started to flow six months earlier, they would not have lost the election.
People thought “Thatcherism” was the source of the UK‘s improving economy. It wasn’t.
It was oil.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/november/3/newsid_2538000/2538155.stm
@peterbrown yes, you are not wrong, Peter. The early 70s is a period that should be looked into more. The majority of historical research concerns itself with the latter half of the decade.
Xx
@Geri it was pure chance that I happen to remember listening to an interview with Denis Healy before he died and that was what he said. If he’d had the oil six months earlier, he wouldn’t have lost the next election to Margaret Thatcher. It was a comment that stuck with me because it has a massive impact on Scottish independence.
@peterbrown I am so sorry for not following you before now as you write interesting stuff.