Mastodawn

François @Jura Jan 10

@anolandria Nazi fabricated violence to take power and invade Poland. MAGA will apply the same playbook, but do it stupidly because it’s MAGA.

@anolandria I would respectfully disagree because they have tanks and Trump is limited at present to his ICE thugs. Why give him a Christmas present where he has an excuse to declare martial law. This is what he is hoping for and people need to not provide it. Sadly, there will be murders by ICE but it is a fight for democracy and people need to stay strong, courageous and peaceful.

@Robo105 @anolandria Tell that to the folks in Waco or the Branch Davidians. Or the guys on Ruby Ridge.
The government can and will do whatever it wants, when it wants. They have drones, long distance guns and bombs. They can and will use them on the American people.
I get being pacifist. I try to be. That privalege is swiftly coming to an end for the majority of us. I can't stand by and watch my people die anymore.

@Robo105 @anolandria Not to bag on you, I swear. I get where you're coming from, I was there for a while.
Just, for me, it's a failing option. I'm not looking for violence, I don't want it. I'm not gonna run away from it, I'm going to fight back when it gets to me (I've not encountered ICE personally yet).

@HappyCrow13 @anolandria The branch davidians and Waco should not be compared to protesters who are fighting for democracy. Trump has all the weapons you mention so violence is his 'trump' card' so why give him public support. Peaceful protests gain support for the protesters

@Robo105 @anolandria The Branch Davidians were peaceful folks who minded their own business. They caused no problems and were well liked The government made up lies about them, attacked and killed them
My point was the government needs no reason to kill you. You can be the most peaceful being on earth and they will kill you. Black folks die even more now despite being as peaceful as always. It's a grossly privileged take to say sit down and die nicely, don't cause problems
Pacifism is privilege

@Robo105 @anolandria Also, the peaceful BLM protests gained supporters but no changes. In my home town literally nothing changed. White people dont like black people especially in large groups. No support for such 'violent gatherings' or 'stupid liberals' All over the country, nothing changed.
Support is fine and dandy. Change is what's important. I can talk all day long I support you I'll help you. It means nothing until I actually do something to help you

@HappyCrow13 @anolandria Waco and davidians had weapons and lost. Black panthers had weapons and lost. Violence eg shooting police is what Trump needs to happen what he is trying to provoke.

HappyCrow13 Jan 11

@Robo105 @anolandria Because the majority pushed them back down.
Not saying go out and shoot up cops I'm saying defend yourself and others by any means necessary, stop telling people to not fight back. Violence is an unfortunate necessity to keep yourself and others safe.
Again, they don't need an excuse to kill you. Why make it easier by accepting dying? Accepting other deaths as "necessary"?

Total Pacifism is a privilege. I'll keep saying it until folks really get it.

@HappyCrow13 @Robo105 Well said. 💯

wbftw Jan 10

@Robo105 @anolandria if they needed a dead ICE thug for an excuse, do you not think they would kill one??? These nazis are playing a zero-sum game, while you are insisting on some sort of cooperation — this is a losing strategy.

@wbftw @anolandria Cooperation is the wrong word. Opposition should play to your strengths and Trump are military force and the protesters have public acceptance/approval. Yes, people are going to die no matter what is done but there is a growing sense that Trump and ICE are out of control. There is an old saying, 'When your enemy is busy making a mistake, don't interrupt'. Let Trump be brutal because he loses more support each day and you can't win against tanks

@wbftw @Robo105 They absolutely would. 💯

@Robo105 @anolandria It's incredibly naïve to believe that protesting completely peacefully doesn't "give them an excuse." Did you or did you not just watch them gun down an innocent woman and then call her a domestic terrorist?

Let me be perfectly clear: they will declare martial law when and where they want. They are not waiting around for someone to shove a cop or block traffic.

They haven't yet because the majority is still passive and going about our lives. Check back in November.

@dresstokilt @anolandria The question is whether they have public acceptance for martial law. If the public see protesters starting fires and shooting then Trump wins but if it is peaceful then he is seen as the brute he is. Yes, both way incur death but one allows success and the other hands Trump a win. This is why Trump is trying to goad violence

@Robo105 @anolandria I don't think you understand - the administration is going to use martial law as a scalpel, not a club. They're going to shut down major cities in swing states in November on election day in order to maintain their hold in the Senate and claim governorships. There have been no pretexts whatsoever for the times they've deployed troops in cities, they manufacture that after the fact. They always do. Those were dry runs and they worked perfectly.

@Robo105 @anolandria I would argue that forcing them to declare martial law early would be more disruptive to their plans than singing kumbaya in the streets.

Not that there's been anywhere near enough "in the streets" to begin with. We're debating the finer points of peaceful protest in the context of a nation that simply doesn't care enough at the moment to put up *any* kind of protest.

@dresstokilt @anolandria No more kings is what is needed on an ongoing basis day after day until the regime collapses. Large number of peaceful protests is almost impossible for dictators to defeat as violence only creates more protesters

@dresstokilt @anolandria If the no more kings put protests on the street day after day then it become harder for Trump to isolate people.

Cifer Jan 11

@dresstokilt @Robo105 @anolandria It seems to me at least the elections will be the pivotal moment. They're going to try some bullshit and it is extremely important how many people see that it is bullshit, how many people believe the regime and how many people go "Well, who can really tell?" and just do nothing - because people doing nothing is enough for Trump to win.

I can see the argument for keeping one's hands clean, to get mired in the swamp of "Maybe the crackdown was justified, maybe it wasn't" as little as possible, to keep as many people as possible clear-headed about what is happening and have them on your side when the time comes. Moments like Good's killing show that it is still possible to get through to people, to have a majority consensus of This Was Murder.

@Teskariel @dresstokilt @anolandria I would add that getting more and more people to see ICE for what it is will harden the feelings against trump and ice

ChookMother 🇦🇺🦘Jan 11

@dresstokilt
This is what you fear *may* happen. It's not a prediction. Others will have different thoughts and see different possibilities. Best to listen to each other, keeping in mind that no-one really knows exactly what will happen. Not knowing is very uncomfortable; that's the way things are right now. #OpenMind #Logic #CriticalThinking

CC to: @Robo105 @anolandria

@anolandria https://theonion.com/protesters-urged-not-to-give-trump-administration-pretext-for-what-it-already-doing/

kNeo gHau Jan 10

Protesters Urged Not To Give Trump Administration Pretext For What It Already Doing

LOS ANGELES—Responding to escalating clashes between civilian activists and militarized immigration authorities, Los Angeles Mayor Karen Bass publicly urged protesters Monday not to give the Trump administration any pretext for what they’re already doing and will keep doing no matter what. “Angelenos—don’t engage in violence and give the administration an excuse to inflict all the […]

The Onion

EndicottRoad59 Jan 10

@anolandria Nonviolent protest is more effective.

Pete Alex Harris🦡🕸️🌲/∞🪐∫Jan 10

@EndicottAuthor @anolandria

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/34738-and-how-we-burned-in-the-camps-later-thinking-what

A quote from The Gulag Archipelago 1918–1956

And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest...

Pete Alex Harris🦡🕸️🌲/∞🪐∫Jan 10

@EndicottAuthor @anolandria
But another way of looking at it is, fascists don't care about protest that doesn't come with consequences for them. They don't care how many people say what they're doing is wrong if nobody is going to stop them doing it.

Nonviolent governments can be swayed by nonviolent protest - it's a negotiation of social norms in that case. But ultimately, protest is supposed to put government on notice that direct action to thwart them may be next.

@EndicottAuthor @anolandria how many fascist regimes has nonviolent protest toppled?

Nonviolent protest only ever works when there is a credible threat of actual violence. When those "ceding power" can point to a nonviolent movement as the reason. MLK isn't effective without the specter of Malcom X.

You can't nonviolent your way out of violence.

@dresstokilt @EndicottAuthor @anolandria

Phosphenes Jan 10

Non-violence toppled Pinochet, Bolsonaro and Yoon Suk Yeol, off the top of my head. There's a longer list...

@Phosphenes @EndicottAuthor @anolandria Bolsonaro and Yoon were ousted by democratic means before they'd had a chance to subvert those institutions and aren't relevant to this conversation. As for Pinochet, there's an entire Wikipedia article called "Armed resistance in Chile (1973-1990)."

Gif's Artidote Jan 10

@dresstokilt @EndicottAuthor @anolandria 💯🏴✊️

@dresstokilt @EndicottAuthor This is exactly right. 💯

Oliver Kurth Jan 10

@anolandria They make shit up, but it's obvious that they do. If there is real violence from protestors, they do not need to make shit up.

Violence is contra productive. There is no chance you can overthrow ICE or whatever that way, you just do not have the means. The point is to get more support from the population, and that will ultimately drive change. Violence will drive support away.

Bensondynamics Jan 10

@anolandria Also: the statement "They're looking for an excuse to do X" is an implicit admission that the decision has already been made. We can only control the "when."

As you said, it's only function can be to reverse victim and offender by blaming the victim for inducing the inevitable. It does conveniently obscure the fact that we should be upset by someone looking for "an excuse."

@bensondynamics this is an outstanding point.

Phosphenes Jan 10

@anolandria

It's not the fascists' opinions that matter.

Once anti-fascists initiate violence, we lose the judges, we lose the citizens, we lose the sympathy of non-corrupt law enforcement.

Those people's minds are the actual battlefield which determines whether we win or lose.

maize Jan 11

@anolandria this is so so so true, and we see it play out constantly in right wing media too. My leftist peers will be like "but the media will construe it in this way" like "yeah and they do that anyway regardless!"

@maize if they need something happen, they will make it happen. It's that simple. "Looking for an excuse" admits they already made up their mind and it's just a matter of when, not if.

ShadowNetworks Jan 11

@anolandria “Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars... Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.”
Martin Luther King Jr.

There’s a very thin line, but sometimes you take the hit to win a fight. We identify criminals by who’s showing lawlessness.

@shadownetworks Only a fool blames a beaten dog for biting.

ShadowNetworks Jan 11

@anolandria we [humans] are not dogs. Never are, never were. No point comparing.