Why does the US military obey an order to go to war despite Congress not having given their consent?

https://lemmy.world/post/41136002

Why does the US military obey an order to go to war despite Congress not having given their consent? - Lemmy.World

Sorry for the political question, but I’ve been hearing all the time that only Congress can declare war and therefore authorise the invasion of another country. Therefore, when the military receives orders to invade e.g. Venezuela, from the executive branch, not from Congress, why is the order followed, or why is there no corroboration of the order? It feels like there is an assumption of propriety, that the military assumes the executive branch followed proper procedural norms. Are the military exposed to prosecution for war crimes as a result of following such an order?

Their army is been filled with yesmen at officer rank levels and up.

Their army also doesn’t give a fuck about law unless they can exploit it for their benefit.

They are also the biggest bully, they simply can do it.

Look up the War Powers Resolution. As long as congress is notified within 48 hours, there’s a free pass for 60 days with another 30 for withdrawal before any approval is granted.
Now this is a proper answer, thank you.

And the Republicans fascists specifically voted against revoking those powers in the last couple of months.

They’ve know this was coming for months, because the United corporations of America already paid their political puppet class to steal Venezuela’s oil.

They knew this was more than likely coming 3 years ago. There was a rush to buy the Venezuelan Bolivar Digitalis for when their shitshow of an economy turned around due to military force. Took longer than I expected but here we are.

So… You could literally order the military to take over a country as a lame-duck president…

wow this is lame

on top of this, no Congress is going to use the withdraw aspect either, because what generally happens is the President sends the troops in, and then turns around and looks at Congress, so you’re going to support our troops or not, which puts the congressman in a really bad PR spot for an elected position

Is that how it went down in Iraq? Because I seem to remember a significant amount of congresspeople who said “yes,” who in other circumstances probably would have said “no.”

Or something like that.

So yes, Congress (the Legislative branch of the US government) authorises war in the United States, but a couple factors are also in play. One, all three parties (also the Executive, i.e. the president; and the Judicial, the Supreme Court) are all in the president’s party, which means they all keep each other’s secrets and whatnot (e.g. Epstein Island but there are others). They all kind of have an unspoken pact protecting each other from mutually assured destruction. It’s almost like loyalty but based on implied blackmail. Two, the president (not just this one, any American president) is considered the Commander in Chief, which is a civilian position but it does hold rank and authority above anyone else in the military (sometimes referred to as a five or six star general, or General of the Armies, or something like that). General disposition of the average soldier who does not lean politically toward the president or outright does not like him is along the lines of “I do not like the man but I respect the rank” and so they will do what he says.

It’s also not direct from the president. The president did not go to all the barracks and rouse the soldiers. The decision would have been made in council with the Joint Chiefs who would pass the orders down through the chain of command.

(I watched a lot of shows like 24 and The West Wing, and read Tom Clancy’s Jack Ryan books. Not the ones people wrote in his name after he died, just to be clear. But, most of that stuff tends to be pretty accurate, minus a couple key details where national security comes before accuracy.)

You’re assuming that the whole Congress is the only branch that can declare war is actually taken at all seriously and that it’s not a complete fantasyland charade.

The US will go to war whenever and with whomever it wants and there’s nothing Congress or you can do about it.

I’m not assuming anything. I’m asking a question about why the official, legal route can be bypassed.

Because the “official laws” don’t mean anything. The only law is “is it in the US’s interests at the time?”. That’s the only law that matters to the USA.

Is it in the interest of the USA to attack and regime change the government of a country sitting on a massive stockpile of oil with little to no serious means of defending itself that the world is largely going to turn a blind eye to? Yes. So it did. Simple.

Not saying what they did was right, just listing reasons. They will have to answer for their own actions.

The president, as commander in chief,

The president also may deploy troops for special operations.

Looking at Viet Nam and other smaller conflicts, there is precedent for obeying. IANAL and cannot describe whether Congress will also seek punishment for what is happening.

From my understanding, the military officers and personnel involved would have to disregard the order, then be arrested and court marshaled to determine if they did in fact disobey a legal order. The depressing part is someone out there will always step up.

ABC has an article about illegal orders that explains it better than I can summarize.

Since there is precedent for the president to order troops to action, I think the illegal orders charges won’t stick for this deployment based on what I have heard.

Powers of the president of the United States - Wikipedia

It was a small subset of the military that completed the mission. It’s easy to find enough zealots to do whatever you say. A large scale invasion wouldn’t have been possible. However it might be now since hes set expectations
because the notion the military won’t. obey an illegal order is as solid as believing in Santa

Not all military actions require Congressional approval.

Going to Congress takes some time, and so you don’t always have that time.

I don’t think that case law has precisely hammered out the division at the level of the US Constitution, but in legal terms, a major element is the War Powers Resolution:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Powers_Resolution

The War Powers Resolution (also known as the War Powers Resolution of 1973 or the War Powers Act) (50 U.S.C. ch. 33) is a federal law intended to check the U.S. president’s power to commit the United States to an armed conflict without the consent of the U.S. Congress. The resolution was adopted in the form of a United States congressional joint resolution. It provides that the president can send the U.S. Armed Forces into action abroad only by Congress’s “statutory authorization”, or in case of “a national emergency created by attack upon the United States, its territories or possessions, or its armed forces”.

The bill was introduced by Clement Zablocki, a Democratic congressman representing Wisconsin’s 4th district. The bill had bipartisan support and was co-sponsored by a number of U.S. military veterans.[1] The War Powers Resolution requires the president to notify Congress within 48 hours of committing armed forces to military action and forbids armed forces from remaining for more than 60 days, with a further 30-day withdrawal period, without congressional authorization for use of military force (AUMF) or a declaration of war by the United States. The resolution was passed by two-thirds each of the House and Senate, overriding the veto of President Richard Nixon.

In practice, the US has not declared war since World War II, though it has engaged in many military conflicts since then. What has happened, for major conflicts, is that Congress has passed some form of military authorization permitting continued combat operations in line with the above act.

In part, I believe it was the practical pressures of the nuclear weapons era that gave the President more freedom to act. There would be no time to obtain approval from Congress in a number of nuclear weapons scenarios, and if you let the Executive make use of the nuclear arsenal — a really big stick — without Congress’s approval, it seems a bit odd to restrict use of conventional force.

I also suspect that one factor is that war is also politically risky; if it becomes unpopular, a Congressman — who may be around for a lot longer than a President, who will be out after two terms — may not want to have a declaration of that unpopular war on his record, and would prefer to minimize involvement, so Congress is generally not, for political reasons, adverse to reducing its exposure.

The issue here is that there’s a certain assumption in that legislation that the freedom given the President is because he requires a great deal of leeway to respond rapidly to unexpected dangers.

In this case, that wasn’t the case, though I suspect one could make a fair argument that an operation of the sort taken required operational secrecy, and Congressional debate would be at serious odds with it.

I think that it’s fair to say that the US has taken the position some time before now that ejecting Maduro is okay and a goal — that’s why Venezuela has been under the sanctions, for example, to create political pressure. That hasn’t worked. The question is really whether that policy can or should be shifted from economic pressure to military force.

War Powers Resolution - Wikipedia

[Moving this text to a separate response, as it really deals with a separate set of issues]

There’s also the issue not just of US law, but of international law, and I think that that’s where more of the interesting questions come up. Under treaties that the US is party to, at an international level, as the UN rules go, to engage in military conflict, other than individual defense or defense of an ally, the US should seek approval from the UNSC (which it would not get on Venezuela; Russia or China would presumably block this). The US has certainly stretched things — its legal argument that the UNSC authorized action against Saddam Hussein is very questionable, for example, but what one sees is a steady erosion of willingness to follow UN rules. Russia and the US are two of the permanent seat holders on the UNSC. Russia didn’t bother to try to get authorization to invade Ukraine (which obviously other members would veto), and I suspect that the Trump administration won’t on Venezuela.

The five permanent UNSC seat holders are the US, China, Russia, France, and the UK. Outside of nuclear weapons, Russia’s military power has substantially declined from the Cold War era, and its economy is of limited size. China is much more militarily powerful than it once was, and today, France and the UK are substantially less militarily-capable in most regards than China and the US. Prior to Brexit, I had thought that the EU would federalize and the French and UK seat would then become an EU seat, which would do something to restore some of the degree to which seat-holders had ability to exert military force. But as things stand, the UNSC, which was crafted to include the major military powers in the world, is now substantially out-of-whack with actual military ability. If you have a legal system to avoid conflict because it reflects what would happen in an actual conflict — e.g. instead of having to fight a war because Party 2 would fight you over the matter, you just have a vote instead that would produce a comparable outcome at far less cost than fighting a war — then there is sense in participating in such a thing. I think in practice, though, the major military powers increasingly don’t care what the UNSC says, for two reasons:

  • In some cases, a permanent seat holder may use a veto to increase the political cost of a country engaging in war when it would not actually go to war against the country wanting to use military force. This degrades the stability of the system, encourages parties to disregard it. I think that this is probably the largest flaw in the system as it stands, and that may be fundamental to it.

  • Secondly, in 2026, China and the US in particular are, in most regards, much more militarily powerful than the other permanent seat members, and may simply not be willing to extend them a veto over their military activity. All countries holding a permanent seat are nuclear powers with some form of second-strike capability, which means that war with them is, at least in theory, quite risky. In practice, though, actually using nuclear weapons comes with a lot of drawbacks; they are not a terribly usable weapon. Countries might well be willing to engage in conflict even expecting strong opposition from permanent seat holders, betting that it will not rise to the use of nuclear weapons. The UK is, absent playing nuclear hardball, going to have very limited ability to militarily oppose China if China wants to conduct a conventional land invasion in Asia. Playing nuclear hardball with China is probably going to be pretty risky.

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handover_of_Hong_Kong

    During talks with Thatcher, China planned to seize Hong Kong if the negotiations set off unrest in the colony. Thatcher later said that Deng told her bluntly that China could easily take Hong Kong by force, stating that “I could walk in and take the whole lot this afternoon”, to which she replied that “there is nothing I could do to stop you, but the eyes of the world would now know what China is like”.[35]

    In theory, the UK could veto such an action at the UNSC. In practice, China was willing to ignore whether-or-not it had UNSC approval, because it knew that the UK lacked the ability and/or will to back up that veto with military force.

This isn’t to say that the UNSC system has always been perfect, but the less it maps to actual ability and will to use military force, the more I expect it to be viewed as irrelevant by the major powers. Trump’s action here will probably further weaken it, I think.

Second strike - Wikipedia

There is a reason the chief executive is also the commander in chief of the military. Congress is slow and so the president has the power to command the military to take swift action.

Some of those in Armed Forces are the same that burn crosses

-Zack De La Rocha, Rage Against the Machine

Killing in the name of

OIL

Because we the people allow them to get away with it.

Decades of manufacturing consent, propergandising against workers power. We live in a hyper individualist society where the state can feel monolithic and we can’t fight it alone, furthered by not knowing how to collectivise. This can however change, when capitalistic crisis deepens so does class antagonism. Capitalism can not solve its own inherent failures.

The US’s imperialist invasion of oil rich Venezuela will lift many out of poverty in imperialistic countries, however this will be a dirty bandage on a septic wound, and while in the short turn it will lift some up, it will also push a vaster number down in the client states.

What we need is a revolutionary working class. No more flimsy concessions, careerists, or ruling elites. This necessitates developing class consciousness with in the mass of our society.

So get studying Marx, join a revolutionary socialists/communist party. Get involved in local actions. Essentially become a leading comrade.

If you want a string worker class, simply limit networth, though it has to be world wide.

Any networth over, say, 10 million goes to taxes, goes to the state. Nobody at all gets filthy rich anymore, not the leaders, not the CEO’s, not the garbage collection men. We all come more or less equal in riches and power.

We have to hard cap power and networth. Communism has never solved that part, you still have leaders with incredible wealth and power

Both those have to be hard limited

But much of the problem isn’t as simple as wealthy individuals, it’s with immortal (and amoral) corporations that rival governments.

The president is generally given more space when it comes to military operations.

A lot of laws were drafted in the time when a special military operation was a year of logistics to make sure your soldiers could even march to a target.

There’s enough grey area that Congress could step in at any time if they want to, but typically won’t. Easier to let the commander take the blame if it goes wrong.

The military will not be exposed to war crimes. First off, the exposure is only on the officer corps. Second, it’s still in the grey area of “we’ve done quick operations before with nothing happening to us”.

It’s one of those “is it illegal if nobody is punished?” situations. And Congress would be the one doing the punishing, being the most powerful branch.

being the most powerful branch.

Theoretically

I don’t think this was illegal under US law. Congress gave the president the power to unilaterally deploy the military pretty much anywhere during george bush’s war in Iraq. Congress has to review the deployment afterwards and can stop it from continuing. Congress gave bush, and every subsequent president the power to do exactly what happened.

The US doesn’t do formal declarations of war anymore. WWII was the last time that happened. Congress authorized military operations without formal declarations many times since. Presidents to this day have been continuing to use the 2001 antiterrorism authorization to strike wherever they want. Obama and Biden did it too, they just didn’t do anything as brazen as kidnapping a president.

The military planned the strikes. You can’t kidnap a head of state in a single evening without a laying a lot of groundwork. The US has a history of backing coups in South America, and they’ve been building a case for war against Venezuela for over a decade. This was within standard practice for the US military.

This, and most of trumps other actions should be illegal. But those who made and enforced the laws since the start of the millennium have all been collaborators.

It’s not technically war because we meant to call it by a synonym argument in 3,2,1…