Mastodawn

Frank Heijkamp Dec 30

@GhostOnTheHalfShell We don't ask the super rich to give us all of their money. We only expect them to pay their share like everyone else does.

🥑 Yours Truly! Unruly 🇨🇦🇪🇺🇺🇦🌻Dec 30

@alterelefant @GhostOnTheHalfShell

With the slave-master relationship, there is no abolishing only one side.

The extremely rich have to go. Save the shedding of tears for the victims in this relationship, not the masters.

Lot⁴⁹ Dec 30

@GhostOnTheHalfShell And no rights for women, whether Saudi or imported slave.

Mikel - Covivienda rural Bioketa Dec 30

@GhostOnTheHalfShell ¿Could just buying from #cooperatives solve the problem of #inequality?

J Lou Dec 30

@mikels @GhostOnTheHalfShell Worker cooperatives are definitely part of the solution, but we need policy changes to speed up conversion and prevent demutualization. The goal ought to be to enshrine the inalienable right to workplace democracy in law. We can fight for incremental steps towards that like giving workers 49% voting rights over firms over a certain size.

Aaron Dec 30

@mikels

If people would only stick to it, definitely. Cooperatives align incentives and redistribute profits and power back to the community where it came from.

I want to see a law where workers have the right to collectively purchase their source of employment at fair market value whenever they choose. Or maybe make it a mandatory yearly vote.

If we had only cooperatives and single proprietorships, we would eventually run out of billionaires, because they'd have no way to extort the common people and renew their reserves. If we wanted to speed it along, we could also add a wealth tax and fund a UBI with it.

@GhostOnTheHalfShell

bufalo1973 Dec 31

@hosford42 @mikels @GhostOnTheHalfShell a good way could be a change in the laws to make cooperatives cheaper and easier to create but with the same benefits an Inc./Ltd./...

eliseo Dec 31

@bufalo1973 @hosford42 @mikels @GhostOnTheHalfShell

Cooperatives and regulations are too reformist to be effective on the long-term. It took three decades for the US government to destroy unions in the past century, policing and playing their game is a waste of time and effort.

bufalo1973 Dec 31

@eliseo01 @GhostOnTheHalfShell @mikels @hosford42 cooperatives aren't the total solution. It's just one weapon in the arsenal.

eliseo Jan 1

@bufalo1973 @GhostOnTheHalfShell @mikels @hosford42

I hardly can consider a tool allowed by or part of the establishment to be a weapon against anything but oneself.

Aaron Dec 31

@GhostOnTheHalfShell @mikels @bufalo1973

Do you have a better proposal? I'm for using all the tools available.

Mikel - Covivienda rural Bioketa Jan 1

Do you know of any database where #cooperatives can be sorted by product offered, by location, etc.? Official databases in my area offer little information and usability.

I tried to start one in Wikipedia, but it was deleted. I'm now hosting a simple version of it in our website. It's been nice realizing that most of our needs can be fulfilled by cooperatives. Having #mondragonCooperative around us probably helps.

Are you interested in creating a collaborative #CooperativeDatabase? Where could be safely hosted?

@hosford42 @eliseo01 @GhostOnTheHalfShell @bufalo1973

bufalo1973 Jan 1

@mikels @hosford42 @eliseo01 @GhostOnTheHalfShell I guess you'll have to send mails to each coop 🤷‍♂️

Mikel - Covivienda rural Bioketa Jan 1

Maybe @MondragonUnibertsitatea can help us.

@bufalo1973 @hosford42 @eliseo01 @GhostOnTheHalfShell

@eliseo01 @GhostOnTheHalfShell @bufalo1973

Aaron Jan 1

@mikels

I don't know of a database, no. I'd be interested in helping create one.

eliseo Jan 1

@hosford42 @GhostOnTheHalfShell @mikels @bufalo1973

Collectively the better proposal is organized armed and violent action against the powers-that-be for short-term, and a social culture that is built on principles of constant struggle to keep things running the way they want for long-term, unfortunately too few are ready to show that level of commitment, yet.

Individually, you can do that on a smaller scale and keep an eye on the affairs, many alleged leftists keep preaching about changing the world they live in, yet they fail to even change themselves for the better, you can't reliably fix anything if you can't even fix yourself, after all.

Luckily hunger and misery radicalize everyone, eventually, and hopefully this is something that we'll witness this century.

bufalo1973 Jan 1

@eliseo01 @GhostOnTheHalfShell @mikels @hosford42 so "burn it all and star anew" it is?

J Lou Jan 2

@GhostOnTheHalfShell @mikels @hosford42 @bufalo1973

Building co-ops today is good. Many people that advocate co-ops believe that they must be mandated to protect workers’ inalienable rights. A co-op sector provides the economic base needed for moving towards mandated worker control. By building co-ops today, the far left could have lobbyists to influence the political process. Obviously, reforming lobbying and campaign finance would be better. Until then, we should try this tactic

eliseo Jan 2

@jlou @GhostOnTheHalfShell @mikels @hosford42 @bufalo1973

This approach was tried over a hundred years ago, in multiple nations, and every single attempt failed to safeguard worker rights on the long-term. Reformism is a game that tyrants want you to play, because that way it's ensured that things stay the way they are, the louder masses get to be content because their conditions are better on the short-term, then a couple decades later everyone forgets about how important it is and capitalists and the state dismantle everything the workers built.

The multiple and consistent failures of the left throughout the past century show that blood will have to spill, because that's the only language you can use against tyrants, leave the reformist speech to politicians, capitalists and liberals, they all seem to believe the economy is somehow broken and can be fixed, rather than replaced, guess why.

> This approach was tried over a hundred years ago

What country implemented a law that all businesses must be either single proprietorships or cooperatives -- a single share per shareholder, a single vote per share, all workers have shares? This is what will prevent billionaires from existing in the first place. And nobody has done it, ever. Not at the scale of the entire economy.

Bloodlust isn't the answer.

eliseo Jan 2

@hosford42 @GhostOnTheHalfShell @jlou @mikels @bufalo1973

> What country implemented a law that all businesses must be either single proprietorships or cooperatives -- a single share per shareholder, a single vote per share, all workers have shares?

None, because the way you blissfully believe this would be implemented no government will ever grant such level of power and autonomy to workers.

> This is what will prevent billionaires from existing in the first place.

Billionaires will threaten to kill and destroy anything to keep existing, and that's why this reformist bullshit you keep parroting will never achieve a thing, as it requires material conditions that do not exist right now, and if they did, cooperatives will not be needed because tyrants with power would not exist in the first place.

When I talked about what was attempted a hundred years ago I referred to unions, which spread throughout the west by the early 20th century and it took less than five decades for all relevant ones to collapse and be dissolved, specially with things like the Taft-Hartley act. Cooperatives have the same fate because they can't safeguard worker rights while keeping prices as low, let alone lower than conventional capitalist competition, I've seen dozens upon dozens of cooperatives failing where I live, every single attempt ends in an eventual failure.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/327907071_Cooperative_Longevity_Why_Are_So_Many_Cooperatives_So_Successful

> I've seen dozens upon dozens of cooperatives failing where I live, every single attempt ends in an eventual failure.

Businesses of all types fail. None of them lasts forever. But cooperatives are *more* resilient, not less.

https://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/10/5/1586

https://feb.kuleuven.be/drc/kco/en/blog/imprinting_effects_in_cooperative_enterprises_exploring_the_longevity_of_cooperatives

https://geo.coop/story/fact-sheet

"Cooperative businesses have lower failure rates than traditional corporations/small businesses: after the first year (10% failure versus 60-80%) and after 5 years in business (90% still operating versus 3-5% of traditional businesses) (World Council of Credit Unions study in Williams 2007). Evidence also shows that cooperatives both successfully address the effects of crises and survive crises better (Borzaga and Calera 2012)."

10 Facts About Cooperative Enterprise

Grassroots Economic Organizing

https://techhub.social/@hosford42/115826165940981436

@[email protected]

I started to suspect this argument was in bad faith, so I checked out your account.

Adios!

Aaron (@[email protected])

@[email protected] The irony (or is it hypocrisy?) of complaining that people are "holier-than-thou" and then calling them "this cattle of morons" doesn't strike you at all? I've seen enough now to hit the block button. Bye!

TechHub

Morgan ⚧️Dec 30

@mikels @GhostOnTheHalfShell solve, no, not on its own, but it is absolutely a big step that we should take. I've been trying to start or join a co-op, but this shit is hard. I think we probably need some more organizations that help people start, join, find, and support local co-ops

Emilio ʕ̡̢̡ʘ̅͟͜͡ʘ̲̅ʔ̢̡̢🇩🇰Dec 30

@GhostOnTheHalfShell @benroyce why people keep ordering on Amazon they support rich business 🤷🏻‍♂️

@Minimac @GhostOnTheHalfShell @benroyce

Aaron Dec 30

It all comes down to short term convenience. One of these days, though, things will reach the point where a lot of people can't even afford it anymore, and then they'll look around and realize how they've been suckered. It's only convenient in the short term. Long term, most of our suffering and work comes from this.

@hosford42 @Minimac @GhostOnTheHalfShell @benroyce

Lea Dec 30

It's not just a matter of "convenience". Amazon has built an empire where most 3rd party sellers pretty much have to go through Amazon's marketplace, and most consumers have a hard time finding somewhere else to buy much of the stuff they want/need.

When you do find a company online that you even have the option of buying from directly from their site (instead of just being directed to Amazon), you may be surprised that the item you ordered still arrives at your house in an Amazon box after all.

Buying at local stores is not much better since it's mostly down to a few big box retailers of each type (whether hardware, books, whatever). and most of their stock is not in the store but has to be ordered and delivered.

The options to buy from alternative sources are few and far between. This is how it is now. It's not just a matter of being convenient or inconvenient, but in most cases a matter of buying the item or not buying the item.

Emilio ʕ̡̢̡ʘ̅͟͜͡ʘ̲̅ʔ̢̡̢🇩🇰Dec 30

@leadore @hosford42 @GhostOnTheHalfShell @benroyce I see many mistake boxes arrived at their house and someone steal boxes too. Any stores local best and go walk to buy items instead lazy order online. 🤷🏻‍♂️

@Minimac @hosford42 @GhostOnTheHalfShell @benroyce

Lea Dec 31

Yes, but depending on where you live there may not be many options. If you're in a large city it's much easier to buy locally, but in smaller towns or rural, ordering online is the only option for a lot of things that aren't available in local stores.

Emilio ʕ̡̢̡ʘ̅͟͜͡ʘ̲̅ʔ̢̡̢🇩🇰Dec 31

@leadore @hosford42 @GhostOnTheHalfShell @benroyce I am sure Amazon will fell down since prices gain growing in future. People won’t buy it because they can’t afford kids book you know how much cost it is ? $18-$20. I walked to nice store regular business saw the kids book for $2-$5 people went that store become popular because cheap prices than ripped off the shit prices from Amazon. Amazon is rich and people will naw not buy bs high prices.