It's white people's responsibility to stop racism.
It's men's responsibility to stop sexism.
It's cis people's responsibility to stop transphobia.
It's straight people's responsibility to stop homophobia.
It's able people's responsibility to stop ableism.
It's always the responsibility of the people in a position of privilege to stop the oppression they are benefiting from.
If you are part of a privileged group, in one way or another, get to it.
@Em0nM4stodon This is categorically false.
These discriminations you list arent created by individuals and groups that may benefit from these arent monoliths or necessarily actively perpetuating it.
This seems more like righteous finger pointing + posturing than a real analysis.
My take is that capitalists have taken advantage of these discriminations and everyone else ocassionally discriminates only BECAUSE cappies have already made it practical and beneficial to discriminate.
@atlas667 @Em0nM4stodon Say it with me now:
"Just because it's not your fault, doesn't mean fixing it isn't your responsibility."
"Privilege does not mean you never suffer. It means that, all other things being equal, a single difference provides an advantage."
The oppressed will always be less capable of overturning their oppressors than those outside the oppressed group. Therefore, even if it's not your fault, as someone with the privilege to be unencumbered by a given form of oppression, it is your responsibility to do more than the oppressed themselves.
@neatchee @Em0nM4stodon
Im critiquing the culture war vibes.
Sure, a sense of social responsibilities keeps societies functioning and makes them better.
My suggestion is organizing along class lines, as all of the things OP points out exist due to a lack of democracy. Voting for the cultivated candidates of capitalists is not democracy.
The working class is the largest and most diverse class. Our material necessities can coordinate into a single cohesive politic. Thats marxism
@neatchee @GLaDTheresCake @Em0nM4stodon
Tribalism today is mainly a media fabrication. There is no REAL cohesive incentive to sustain "tribes". We arent monoliths.
Even the white supremacist narratives depend on "the rich whites will be nice to me cause im white too", which is naive as fuck.
There is not a lot of actual modern tribalism going on beyond the narratives being pushed by culture war warriors and their divisive rhetoric.
@atlas667 @GLaDTheresCake @Em0nM4stodon Tribalism is an evolutionary solution to survival pressures in our environment and it will take thousands of years to remove it from our biology. There is plenty of evidence for this. e.g. Humans notoriously breed faster in poverty, a hilariously bad idea that makes no sense until you realize that it's an adaptation for guaranteeing gene perpetuation rather than creating thriving individuals or societies.
Tribalism is literally baked into our DNA. You find it even within progressive communities because it's about genetic propagation. We do it without thinking based solely on urges we don't understand, driven by environmental factors we often don't control.
If you think tribalism is a social construct we have a fundamental disagreement.
@neatchee @GLaDTheresCake @Em0nM4stodon
Idk, this seems weirdly classist to me, maybe even racist.
Are you sure you arent manifesting some classism here?
The reason poorer people have a lot of kids is due to customs, lack of education or lack of access to health.
The reason poor people can be racist is also a lack of education.
You're like essentializing the poor into weird unconscious behaviors.
Where is tribalism other than in cultivated racism/religious discrimination?
@atlas667 @GLaDTheresCake @Em0nM4stodon
Where is tribalism other than in cultivated racism/religious discrimination?
Seriously? How about sports teams? Collegiate pride? Music fandom? I could go on but hopefully you get my point. It's everywhere. And stress makes it come out involuntarily.
https://lmgtfy.app/?q=evolutionary+original+of+tribalism
I'm done now. You have some reading to do.
@neatchee @GLaDTheresCake @Em0nM4stodon
I don't see sports teams fandoms or college pride as the same as ableism, racism and transphobia.
Cappies will exploit similar mechanisms present in both, but its not the same thing.
Racism was like "lets exploit unequal geographic/economic developmental differences and buy people to sell them for labor abroad and create a biological narrative that upholds this money making scheme"
Sports is like "theres real community in team fandom"
@atlas667 @GLaDTheresCake @Em0nM4stodon it is all an expression of tribalistic behavior. Just because one is clearly oppressive while the other appears celebratory doesn't mean they don't share the same biological and emotional motivations.
Seriously, you need to read up on your anthropology and social behavioral psychology. This is a settled issue and I'm not interested in continuing to debate it.
Tribalism is a survival instinct that manifest across a wide range of human behaviors. The fact that it appears in so many different ways is exactly why "just socialism it away" will never, ever work. It's that pervasive and deeply rooted in our biology
@neatchee @GLaDTheresCake @Em0nM4stodon Wait, so enacting mass democracy, according to you, is futile because we have tribalistic tendencies? Its almost as if your framing of this discussion tends towards inaction...
I want to remind you that culture is like a front end, we can change it. Its been changing all the time.
I dont believe people will just automatically be perfect in a socialist framework, but if we remove the economic incentives to be shitty A LOT of progress can be done.
@atlas667 @GLaDTheresCake @Em0nM4stodon now you're just putting words in my mouth.
I'm saying socialism will not solve tribalism and rejecting your claim that classism is the source of racism, homophobia, and other tribalistic-oriented issues. And that your attempt to pivot this conversation towards your preferred axis of classism is self centered at best and sabotage at worst.
I'm done discussing this with you. Stop or catch a block.
@neatchee @GLaDTheresCake @Em0nM4stodon A historical material approach to some social issues is def rooted in class analysis.
Genders were an important cultural tool in early states as part of expansionist/settler dynamics (thus homophobia/transphobia), racism was an important tool in many states for imperial/slavery/exploitation purposes.
Ableism I see as just capitalist profit extraction dynamics and capitalist states reserving state funds for the capitalists. I'll leave it there, good luck.
@atlas667 @GLaDTheresCake @Em0nM4stodon Your insistence on ignoring the feedback of people actually impacted by these issues is ignorant and dismissive.
Your refusal to engage with the perspectives of people telling you, multiple people telling you, that these issues exist in socialist and progressive communities is myopic and undermines your intent.
Your outright ignoring my request that you stop shows you have no self control.
Goodbye.
@GLaDTheresCake @neatchee @Em0nM4stodon Opression almost always has a material incentive behind it. We can eliminate the material incentive through sheer popular will like, say, delegate democracy, & then undo the cultural elements
The historic opression of minorities creates a pool of cheap labor & cultural phenomenon. Raise the people & then eliminate discrimination
But if you're talking about vague categories like whiteness then there may not be a way to grasp this. It's a categorical error
@atlas667 Just because you haven't read into what whiteness is and where it stems from and how the oppressions works doesn't mean there isn't any material to draw from.
In your very hard effort to be materialist in every analysis you create you ignore the fact that economy isn't the only material relationship that exists out there, and that not every single aspect of colonialist kyriarchy stems from an economic desire to oppress.
Oppression doesn't just stem from economy, there is material factors outside of economy that exist and are as tangibly real as economic oppression is. Regarding them as side effects outside of the scope of your analysis does nothing but wash your hands of the responsibility to actually tackle problems intersectionally.
@GLaDTheresCake I understand historical cultural phenomenon.
I do not put them aside, I base them. Because this is a weird subject that has been used to rhetorically put aside and often even negate that the main issue of workers is real political agency for a vague and personalized "more equal social standing", as if mass democracy would not acheive a realized version of that.
This is why I claim that these conversations have been framed in a totally politically inert way
@atlas667 The fact you speak of "workers" speaks volumes, no human value is derived from a capacity to labour.
There is no vague and personalised more equal social standing. There are structural forces—that are interconnected with but not dependent on colonialist modes of economic exploitation—that won't just disappear magically with more diffuse political power.
Majoritarian rule still marginalises those in weaker social positions, and bigotries and social norms don't suddenly vanish because you reformed the modes of capital production.
The fact of the matter is, leftist movements are materially rife with things like racism, sexism, ableism, transphobia and other oppressions. Even those that actively enact more diffuse economic power systems.
Trying to spin this as not a central issue is just being defensive over structural oppression you might be a part of and have to actively change. It's a lot easier to just larp and pretend the mythical "revolution" will magically fix it all in one fell swoop.
@GLaDTheresCake Workers, in this context, is a class of people who dont possess means of production.
How do you know people are still discriminated against in mass democracies?
Leftist movements are people, people are all subject to the same flaws. If a leftist movement has these flaws it must be called out and corrected. I wont defend them.
The "mythical" revolution is not perfect. But organizing to put political power into the hands of the marginalized is better than weird reparations talk
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