Mastodawn

Klaus Frank Dec 7

Ehm, why should it not be chemically feasible? I can see the financial argument. But chemically it should always be possible?!?

@agowa338 @greenpeace https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-recycling-isnt-the-answer-to-the-plastic-pollution-problem/

Noodlemaz Dec 7

Why Recycling Isn't the Answer to the Plastic Pollution Problem

Recycling can only get us so far to a sustainable plastic future. The real solution to transforming the plastic economy lies in making less in the first place

Scientific American

2xfo Dec 7

@agowa338 @greenpeace
Plastics are complex molecules made of very definite arrangements of elements that you can't get from scratch and which degrade when exposed to heat. The theory that you can melt it all and sort the elements from a resulting slurry to be resembled into new plastic is just not founded in any real observation that applies to more than one kind of plastic taken in small amounts in a lab setting.
Plastic is almost exclusively made from virgin petroleum which is basically ancient mineralized algae or something and we don't have an analog process to generate anything like that from scratch.

Also, the recycling plants release so much plastic dust, microparticles, and toxic fumes in their communities. These are not safe things to have in general.

@RnDanger @agowa338 @greenpeace

seachanged Dec 10

There are interesting developments on this front. This is a good introduction to use of supercritical water to address some of the shortcomings of direct plastic recycling.

https://www.kbr.com/sites/default/files/documents/2023-09/1014_ES_Olsynski_Plastics_Potential.pdf

The process mentioned has a pilot plant in operation, to the best of my reckoning.

Clearly, using the output of this process to generate fuel is an non-renewable path to be avoided just as much as direct incineration of plastic as a means of "recycling".

Christian Kent 𝘊𝘒 :＼﹥Dec 8

Erik Ableson Dec 7

@agowa338 @greenpeace Chemically, anything is possible given enough energy, pressure & ability to isolate specific compounds. Practically speaking you only get that combination (in financially viable amounts given the current constraints of market capitalism) working in a petroleum distilling plant

Exactly!

@agowa338 @greenpeace Like carbon capture or new nuclear, it’s either achieved zero or is unfinancial or both. Beware the delay tactics.

Dr Susi Arnott Dec 7

@greenpeace Agree with gist, but what to make of this?
(From a fan of #WillemDafoe, hoping he's on board:)
https://practicalaction.org/news-stories/turning-river-rubbish-into-money-in-bangladesh/

Turning river rubbish into money in Bangladesh

New work led by Practical Action is set to improve marine and animal life, human health and create wealth for thousands of waste workers in Bangladesh.

Practical Action

@SusiArnott @greenpeace

I assume they are using some mix of heating plus vacuum chamber to extract carbon & reclaimed oil.

I see this as all well & good type of recycling IF the pyrolysis plant is 100% fueled by green energy.

Now, what you do next with that oil is what I'm concerned with.

Is the recycled plastic fueling this irrigation pump or just lubricating?

I would hope most are creating something with the oil instead of burning & releasing into the atmosphere.

cauZation Dec 7

@milagemayvary @SusiArnott @greenpeace A PET project: differential map of PET plastics and the majority of 'non'-recyclable fossil fuel products...

The fossil fuels industry employs virtual geniuses in greenwashing within a 10% budget, of their 90% profits. Their next extraneous luxury thrill depends on keeping 90% of the masses in deeper ignorance.

#Oligarchy #TechBros and authoritarian autocracies bank on it. Too late for the wealthiest nations. #EmergingEconomies #DevelopingCountries now.

@cauZation

What?

I agree that tech billionaires are spending plenty of dosh to keep masses ignorant to green washing plastics.

But what do you mean by "Too late for wealthy countries"?

Your reply reads like a LLM fever dream, and I suspect as much seeing the banner on your page.

Take care

Count Holdem Dec 7

@milagemayvary @cauZation I agree that fossil fuels are too deeply embedded into most wealthy nations, in order to stop burning them. Most grids are completely dependent on them as well, and need far too much upgrading for various renewables. Petrochemical companies like Dow Chemicals, use political cronies that write policy for them, while profit sharing - a direct conflict of interest.

China's Belt and Road Initiative circumvents this via the Global South. No more good money after bad.

Nu Modular Dec 7

@CountHoldem @milagemayvary @cauZation It's the global movement to more autocracies that puts it over the top for Capitalism.

But it is amusing to see the brainwashed "Communist" robots that don't have a clue about sustainability.

@CountHoldem @cauZation

I disagree with the notion that fossil fuels are too deeply embedded.

Only recently has it financially makes sense to switch to solar & is getting cheaper, more efficient & more is coming online day by day.

Battery storage is getting cheaper with sodium ion batteries coming into the picture.

Texas generated 40% of power demand via solar for the first 9 months this year.
Gas met 47% of the energy demands last year & 43% this yer.

All that despite who's in office.

Count Holdem Dec 7

@milagemayvary @cauZation More and more a moot point, if not exaggerated, since China is outperforming the rest of the world, combined, in renewables. And yes, with the current US administration; this will only get worse.

@CountHoldem

No idea what you're on about.
You're the one who brought up some race with China with their belt & road project.

This thread is about green washing plastic recycling, and I disagree that fossil fuels are too embedded to remove out of the power grid.

Nothing is permanent.

Count Holdem Dec 8

@milagemayvary You should have stopped at "No idea".

Unfortunately; your ilk are legion, embedding ignorance as the ultimate enemy, as is your kind's PET project. Past cascading tipping points; no doubt you're 'winning'.

Nu Modular Dec 8

@CountHoldem @milagemayvary Therein lies the rub: most don't even have half of how predominant fossil fuels are, at most every level of civilization. They don't even know how much carbon THEY're made of, or, therefore, the difference graduating the burning of fossil fuels can make in a backyard greenhouse, let alone our planet.

And the convenience store mentality of easiest path math, makes it all that much more difficult to curb - via educational systems or otherwise. This is why I'm more pessimistic on current and future generations being able to regroup in emerging economies, instead of just ignorantly prolonging the fossil fuels industries' reign. With increasingly cascading destabilization of ecosystems around the world - Milankovitch Cycles aside - the odds are getting worse for even the best of root infrastructure scientists to overcome.

Perhaps a mass extinction.

cauZation Dec 8

@numodular @CountHoldem @milagemayvary Even just the BASICS of behavioral science...

sigh

Nu Modular Dec 8

@CountHoldem @milagemayvary @cauZation The Permian Basin has record drilling applications since the sand corrosion problem was solved recently. It's not looking good for the good ole USA.

sidereal Dec 7

@greenpeace Plastic recycling is messy but that’s not all recycling! if you’re not recycling metal and glass you’re absolutely fucking up. Please hate on things accurately

Bobsee Dec 7

@sidereal @greenpeace What do you think of recycling #paper #cardboard?

Callisto Dec 7

@greenpeace I genuinely wonder whether it's better NOT to recycle plastic, since the plastics will ultimately leach into the ground when containment efforts degrade - rather than being released as toxic fumes into the air near human habitations?

(It's also my understanding that recycling steel, aluminum, glass and paper *does* conserve a lot of resources and decrease environmental impact, can you confirm?)

Wordmark Dec 7

@greenpeace ask #tetrapac they should know

MBEverding Dec 7

@greenpeace we need to stop producing plastic from oil completely. I see no harm in recycling packaging (that would become less if plastic becomes more expensive). But things that are produced to break and single use items that don't get repaired should stop.

Willow :bhjflag_bisexual::anarchy_punk_demiboy:Dec 7

@greenpeace "convenient and comforting"?
Milions of people get shamed for simply not throwing a piece of junk into the right container, even though it's not even clear what container it should be thrown into because producers can't even be bothered to write on the packaging what material it is.

It of course goes to show that we're socially engineered to blame eachother rather than the people in charge, but calling that social engineering "convenient and comforting" is a misunderstanding at best

RattlesnakeStu Dec 7

Obviously they're not going to, and obviously plastic recycling works (recycled plastics are widely used in many different products), so what is the point in suggesting that consumers shouldn't recycle plastic because "recycling is a lie." This is demonstrably false, and it leads people to discard recyclable material, and it supports the anti-environmentalists who try to malign all recycling.

Mx Verda Dec 7

@rattlesnakestu @greenpeace what does boot taste like

Maurizio

Dec 7

@greenpeace asking corporations to behave Better as like asking to a serial killer to stop killing.
We must Push over government to approve laws to ban plastics for several usage (bottles, bags, packaging..) when I was young plastics didn't exist as today and we lived good.
We had glass for wine and refill, a lot of foods were packed with paper, we drank public water.
We were used to but food day by day, without throwing away expired goods.
The only way is a law

VulcanTourist Dec 7

@migbox @greenpeace

> asking corporations to behave Better as like asking to a serial killer to stop killing.

It's true. As I said elsewhere re: IBM and the Nazi Party just minutes ago:
https://autistics.life/@VulcanTourist/115679908722676645

Aaron Dec 8

@migbox

We could fix it at the source if corporations weren't sociopathic from the start. That sounds impossible, but it can actually be accomplished with one simple change: make them cooperatives instead of publicly traded. You still have shares. You still have investments. But everyone gets at most 1 share, shares can't be sold or traded, and the workers and/or customers are the shareholders. That erases the incentive for the company to be evil, because who is it being evil to? The very people who control it through democratic shareholder voting.

So yeah, law is the answer, but we can fix a lot more than this one problem if we focus on the *right* laws: The laws governing the establishment of publicly traded corporations.

@hosford42 @greenpeace you are probably right, but the public support to that law would be difficult, corporations will depict that law as a communist ideology. It would be difficult as asking to vote for a patrimony taxation, which should be a fair approach to taxation, but even workers would be against.
Asking to ban plastics is a more achievable target, everyone one could understand is the right step to give our nephew a future.

RiaResists Dec 7

@greenpeace They’ve got to stop producing plastic- period.
#JustStopOil

hicksy2 Dec 7

@greenpeace worryingly oil company lobbying has worked at EU policy level, with themed research topics for plastic recycling prioritised over research into bio-based packaging.

Tobias, or?Dec 7

@greenpeace I chuck my plastic waste in the recycling bin just because it's too much to fit the regular bin. I hate this.

kwrose Dec 7

@greenpeace I think this goes back to the old mantra of 'reduce, reuse, recycle' - we should be reducing what we use in the first place, then reusing or repurposing what we do use, then recycling. But it obviously needs action at a society level as well as a personal level.

Hacker

Dec 7

@greenpeace Plastic is shit, yes. But it's not the only material used to make envelopes that is sent to recycling. Glass, paper and brass have no major problems being recycled. Food scraps are converted into compost.

I'm not going to stop separation of trash just because plastics are hard to recycle. There's a ton of investigation to improve the recycling process of plastics.

What I do is reduce the consumption of plastic.

Brokar Dec 7

@greenpeace That's why i'm still a fan of glass bottles and metal cans. Both are 100% recycleable.

Captain Reality Dec 7

@greenpeace ugh. Why are Greenpeace so bad at messaging?

"Recycling is a toxic lie."

NO IT ISN'T! Plastic recycling is a toxic lie. Aluminium, Steel, cardboard, and glass recycling is definitely not a toxic lie; quite the contrary.

You want to know how to encourage the average person to dump everything in the trash, including aluminium, steel, e-waste, used motor oil, waste solvents, etc...? You tell them that "Recycling is a toxic lie".

Greenpeace has been a net negative for every cause it espouses for decades now.

rexi Dec 7

Trump and his idiotic #tariffs oddly present a future opportunity—‌post Trump.

An #importtariff on #plasticpackaging raw or applied, by weight.

On every other county. Every product.

Defray the costs of remediation, disposal or reuse.

Declare it as a national emergency honestly this time.

Sepia Fan Dec 7

Plastic recycling is like CCS, a lie to keep profits rolling in - without adapting.

Ogy Dec 7

@greenpeace it isn't in the planet's interest to spread misinformation.

I've been a chemical engineer for the better part of a decade and plastic recycling is definitely both chemically and financially feasible. I've worked on this myself. It will, however, take huge amounts of investment and a couple decades.

This doesn't take away from the fact that we need companies to stop producing virgin plastic.

It's literally in the slogan "reduce, reuse, recycle" - reducing is the first priority.

related....

Could you update the post to say 'plastics recycling is a toxic lie'?

Plenty of materials are beneficially recyclable.

Andrey Bondarenko Dec 8

@greenpeace please stop spreading this 'plastic in testicles' BS.

ruffin Dec 8

@greenpeace *plastic.

You mean recycling plastic. Aluminum, cardboard good. Plastic bad.

DFX4509B (Joshua Mason)Dec 8

@greenpeace Hold up, there's an entire category of craft projects which focus on recycling stuff and those seem pretty harmless, and they even look fun too.

slash Dec 8

@greenpeace Penn & Teller did a segment of their show, "Bullsh!t" on this. "Litterbug", and the weeping Chief were all part of a PR campaign because one of the states was pushing legislation making Coca-Cola (and others, presumably) responsible for the results of switching away from glass.