Emo VulcanNov 11
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦

No, your website is not "working correctly" unless it is working correctly on two *different* rendering engines.

I lived through the IE6 era, I do not want to live through that kind of bullshit again. And trust me, neither do you.

#WebDev

Nov 11 at 12:15pmWeb
Show threadAnthropyNov 11
@rysiek I can still hear the developers from back then yelling "just use a shim! a shim will solve everything! shims! shims stacked on shims! more shims!" which I still feel is how that whole "1kb website with 1mb worth javascript" era began we're still in today 
Show threadMichał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦Nov 11
@anthropy for real. Sometimes shims were necessary, but man were they overused.
Show threadJernej Simončič �Nov 11
@anthropy @rysiek I think they're called polyfills now :)
Show threadThanasis KiniasNov 11

@rysiek
what was *fun* was trying to make a site that was standards-compliant and used CSS properly but also rendered as intended on Netscape 4

so many tears caused by Netscape 4 back when I was doing webdev stuff...

Show threadJeff McNeillNov 11
@rysiek webkit and blink?
Show threadstevenNov 11
@rysiek We still have internal servers added to our Enterprise Site List to render in older versions of IE. Enterprise my ass.
Show threadkimaprNov 11
@rysiek i’d argue it should be 3 different engines even, if a website works on firefox and chromium but not safari/webkit it’s still broken
Show threadCadenNov 11
@kimapr @rysiek fair, but it's a lot harder to test for that one given that you either need specific hardware, or you need to get an ISO from someone with specific hardware and run a VM, which is against Apple's EULA
Show threadMichał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦Nov 11
@tarix29 @kimapr yeah, Apple are being dicks about this, because of course they are.
Show threadkimaprNov 11
@tarix29 @rysiek you don’t need apple-specific hardware to use webkit. you can just grab GNOME Web, Midori, surf, or any other of the billions of open source webkit-based browsers
Show threadCadenNov 11
@kimapr @rysiek true that will work for the baseline. I was thinking of Safari specifically, which has some differences. You definitely won't totally break Safari support by only testing on other WebKit browsers, but you can still get styling discrepancies, I ran into some last week. Even MacOS vs iOS Safari can have differences, iirc scrolling behavior is one of them
Show threadMichał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦Nov 11

@tarix29 @kimapr if it works and looks the same on webkit, gecko, and blink, I'm willing to say it's on Safari to get its shit together.

It's not like Apple lacks the resources to do this well.

Show threadZuthalNov 11
@tarix29 @kimapr @rysiek EULAs were made to be broken
Show threadKagan MacTane (he/him)Nov 11
@kimapr @rysiek I hate Safari, but I agree with you. If your site doesn't work on "the browser that roughly 98% of iOS users have", that qualifies as broken.
Show threadWilfried KlaebeNov 11

We can turn that around a little too: if it works on Chrome (and Edge) and Safari, but not on Firefox, it's still broken.

@kimapr @rysiek

Show threadJustin FitzsimmonsNov 11

@kimapr @rysiek safari is the IE6 of our generation and there is no reason for anyone to be using it if it wasn't for Apple's anti-competitive practices.

I very much welcome more diversity in the rendering engine space but safari's overt resentment for web devs is not the way to do it.

Show threadLaloutreNov 11
@kimapr @rysiek if I believe the stats from my e-commerce website, counting only placed orders ( so guarantee it's not bot traffic), you should still be supporting IE10, if i count also visitors who don't order much, IE9 is still pretty big too. And it's a small site, barely 30 orders a day, larger websites should probably support ie6...
Show threadsungloctoNov 11
@[email protected]
3

webkit, gecko and blink
Show threadMichael CookNov 11
@rysiek Also? Edge doesn’t count. Still chromium.
Show threadMichał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦Nov 11
@foobarsoft I did say "different rendering engines" for a reason
Show threadZuthalNov 11
@rysiek i'd argue you should only get to call your website as working correctly if all features function as intended on at least blink, gecko and webkit
Show threadGoldmasterNov 11

@rysiek Back in secondary school in the late 2000s early 2010s we learned to test our website made in dreamweavever in Internet explorer, chrome, Firefox, opera and safari.

Now developers don't do that. They just test in edge and chrome. When I get a browser not supported often changing the user agent often results in the website working fine.

Show threadMichał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦Nov 11

@Goldmaster yeah, that last bit is even worse! they are actively shutting out browsers explicitly. It's not just that they do not test on them, they actively block them.

incompetence and cargo culting, is what that is.

Show threadGoldmasterNov 11

@rysiek oh better than that!

Must use the app and then everyone wonders why their phones are littered with 500 apps.

Show threadOliveNov 11
@Goldmaster Thankfully, Dreamweaver is still the industry standard!
Show threadNicolas Mendoza 🇺🇦🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍Nov 11
@rysiek it was hard to make them work in both Voyager, IBrowse and AWeb but it was possible #amiga
Show threadJeanReadsNov 11
@rysiek Dedicated Firefox user. (I know, and I don't care) and lately, a lot of sites just do not work. I am forced to open them on Edge. DO NOT LIKE. Fix this, people. Please.
Show thread𝘋𝘪𝘳𝘬Nov 11

@rysiek Also, do not aim for or rely on pixel perfection. You're basically just giving a suggestion to the browser how to display the content.

A good website is semantically correct and does not have any styling-only bloat.

Show threadPhilip Mallegol-HansenNov 11
@rysiek It’s not a website, it’s a Googsite.
Show threadLeelooNov 12

@rysiek
I don't consider Webkit and Blink different rendering engines. More like different versions of the same engine.

I also consider Firefox dead, killed by Mozilla.

So to fulfil your requirement, kI would have to make sure that my website works in a Webkit(Blink) based browser as well as something like Lynx.

And while in theory my web site IS designed to work in Lynx, that is not something I test every time I make a change, and there are parts that probably don't work as well, primarily anything involving some kind of image.

Show threadAllyPallyNov 12
@rysiek This brings back the pain of delivering video on CD-ROM. We tested on Mac and three flavours of Windows but there was always an end user with a setup which couldn’t play it. When DVD arrived it was such a relief.
Show threadMichał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦Nov 12
@allypally did I say "all rendering engines" though?
Show threadAllyPallyNov 12
@rysiek True.