JuniorsCrackDealerMaybe there was a cure for human cancer, but it didn't work at all in mice.
slazer2auWe know a bunch of ways to kill cancer cells. Unfortunately, we usually want to avoid killing the non-cancerous ones, which is considerably harder to do.
reminds me of trump’s suggestion of using bleach to treat people with covid
GuyFawkes
Midnight WolfNow now, you can’t be picky! And really with the outcome being the same, there’s no reason to bicker.
This is where oregano oil and apple cider vinegar technology comes from.
Or it was too cheap to duplicate so there was no profit in it…
aarch0x40There’s more profit in causing and treating cancer than curing it. Can’t weaken those revenue streams just so some poor people can go on living. If they were worth saving then they wouldn’t have been born better.
Even when we find a single drug that effortlessly cures every type of cancer and costs $1 to peoduce it will be patented by some giant company and sold to highest bidders.
VindictiveJudgeCheap to duplicate is great for them. That means larger profit margins.
In the long run, using mice to test human medicines will result in selection pressure for humans whose physiology more and more closely resembles mice.
they use a lot of other things… including living human cancer cells in a petri dish
well no, they kill cancer in petri dishes
Maybe the real cancer is the friends we made along the way
The reality is that even if there was a magic bullet for cancer, all cancer, it would only extend lives a few years.
I believe the vast majority of cultivated human cells are cancerous cells anyway.
when researching cancer drugs, yeah
Mice, notorious for living in unclean conditions and being carriers of fleas and disease will definitely have a different set of evolved resistances and immunities to us. It’s pretty ludacris science believes them to be a good point of comparison.
Not when the sewer mice have turtles to protect them
Humans only discovered hygiene somewhere in the last couple of thousand of years. Evolutionary pressure for large animals works on time lines of hundreds of thousands to millions of years. Before we got cleaner (and also after that) we also lived in unclean conditions, often are still covered in fleas and lice and we are still one of the greatest spreaders of disease. Humans and mice are extremely similar in many ways, just because we have a large brain doesn’t mean we are somehow no longer the animals we always were. We share much of our evolution with mice, our cells are extremely similar and we share 92% of our DNA.
Mice are an excellent point of comparison to humans. And because they are small, live short lives and grow fast, they are excellent to serve as a basis for testing. However it’s also worth remembering the mice aren’t the starting point, nor are they the end point. It’s just one of the steps in between and many other species and techniques are used. In a lot of cases, mice aren’t used at all, but some other test is done.
It’s also like people seem to think that researchers are just doing random crap to mice and seeing what works. Like I said there is a lot of stuff that comes before and a lot of stuff that comes after. Tests with mice are often done to research something very specific, with a carefully considered method of testing and expected outcome. If someone thinks of something so hyper specific to humans, they would simply not do any trials on mice since that wouldn’t yield any results. These days we’ve also gotten extremely good at growing cells and complex clumps of cells at large scales for not much money. And these can be actual human cells with actual human DNA and biological processes. This has made animal testing far less necessary than it was in the past.
Sure at some point if something is very promising but there are doubts about some complex interaction that might be an issue, animal testing can be useful. But if the thing to test is something so specific to humans, an animal closer to humans would be used, for example pigs or some monkeys or apes. And if those doubts aren’t there it isn’t like animal testing is a required step, it is possible to go to human trials without it.
Of course this depends heavily on what it is you are trying to do. For drugs for example animal testing is often done, but often not to figure out if it works or not. But to figure out what sort of dose is needed for enough to be absorbed, but not so much the drug is wasted or the patient would experience a lot of side effects. It’s pretty easy to do a short trial on some pigs and have the first human trial get the dose right straight away. At this point it’s more of a regular way of doing things than something absolutely required. In a lot of places regulation will require some animal testing, especially for drugs, , but these days with better lab tests and simulations it isn’t strictly required.
So it might be a fun shower thought, but it isn’t really how stuff works in real life.
See also, humanized mice, KO mice with particular genes knocked out to see if gene therapy works, and a host of other intentionally bred or adapted strains.
It’s just an early testing phase, more of an “ok, this drug kind of did what we want in mice, and the mice didn’t explode. It’s time to move to the next stage of testing on something more human analogue, like a pig.”
halvarMice live 9 months in the wild, and have a resting heart rate of 500-700 bpm.
That’s not how evolution works though
Assuming that
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human phenotypic traits that correlate more closely with mouse traits have more-predictable outcomes with mouse-tested medicine, and
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more-predictable medical outcomes correlate with higher survival and reproductive rates,
can’t you plug that straight into the Price equation?
TechnoticaNo!
We will be crab!
Everything becomes crab!
(not mice), but Fancy Rats are extremely susceptible to tumors. It sucks. Most rats I’ve owned have died of either cancer or respiratory illnesses than old age.
Bonus shot of my boy Finn:
I love him
He has a kind face.
You say that but he always wears a leather jacket and carries a flickknife with him when he goes outside!!
so does my mom.
Like he works in French restaurant.
The whole concept of “curing cancer” is such a trope. Cancer is a condition, and it annoys the fuck out of me that people treat it as one disease like measles or the flu.
Cancer can’t be cured because it isn’t 1 thing. And animal testing regardless of the benefit humans may receive is morally wrong.
So what, we just test things in a dish and then hope it works in a complex organism? Because the other alternative is human testing.
ebolapieThe funny thing about this very dumb take, is if the people who believed it followed through, the idea would eventually die out.
Dying vs using medicines that had any animal testing involved in their creation.
This wasn’t particularly complex, but maybe complex for someone with your take.
And animal testing regardless of the benefit humans may receive is morally wrong.
You can say whatever you want, but just because you feel it really hard doesnt mean it will be convincing to other people.
In this particular case, I think animal testing is moral as fuck, because why in the fuck would I possibly value animal lives even close to that of a human or myself.
Because I care about me more than any other animal.
If someone tried to kill you, would you just let them or not?
Any sane answer says you value you more than someone else.
Its crazy you find this opinion applied to animals to be offensive.
Humans, particularly those in modern societies, live outside of natural order. We don’t contribute anything to it and just use it up. We slaughter millions of animals that we first rape to keep manufacturing them like their products. The animals were experiment in often never see the sky or feel the earth. You matter more than them?
Yeah, I’m the crazy one…
Yup, that sounds crazy AF.
Its a wonder you think you’ll convert anyone just by sounding batshit insane.
I’m human. You think I would think my own species matters less than a different one? No other species thinks differently, why would we feel any different, especially given our massively different capabilities thought wise?
I know I won’t change anyone’s mind.
What other species kills at the level humans do? The shear fact you mention our capabilities proves my point; we do horrible things when we have the capability to choose not to.
I know I won’t change anyone’s mind.
So why are you spouting off about it? To what end?
What other species kills at the level humans do? The shear fact you mention our capabilities proves my point; we do horrible things when we have the capability to choose not to.
This could apply for so many things, but not testing for medical purposes. Thats you being irrationally idealistic past the point of stupidity.