Mastodawn

Ulrich Popp

Oct 21, 2025

@ErikUden Aus solchen Statistiken liest ja auch nur jeder raus, was er will:
Die einen sagen "absolut gesehen begehen etwa 2/3 aller Straftaten Deutsche."
Andere sagen "Wir haben einen Ausländeranteil von .. keine Ahnung.. 20%, würde man das in Relation mit reinstellen.. "
Wieder ander kommen mit anderen Statistiken daher, die die Straftaten noch in unterschiedliche Ethnien aufdröseln und dann kommt raus, daß vorallem die "heißblütigen Orientalen" mit Abstand die meisten Straftaten begehen.
Ich nehme für mich persönlich mit, daß ich in einem Ort mit einem Anteil von mindestens 25% mit Migration bzw. -Hintergrund leben und es läuft bei uns gut. ALLERDINGS haben wir auch keinen echten Brennpunkt, der ist ~10km weiter in DA-Süd3 zB, wo es erheblich mehr Probleme gibt. Das liegt wahrscheinlich weniger an der Migration und mehr an der sozialen Schwäche.

Limnobotanik Oct 21, 2025

@HoSnoopy @ErikUden und wieder andere wollen dann nicht nur die Staatsbürgerschaft des Täters wissen, sondern auch den Vornamen wissen... denn wer Mehmet heißt....

Andreas K Oct 21, 2025

@HoSnoopy @ErikUden Der Punkt ist hier nicht der rechte Balken.

Der Punkt ist der Unterschied zwischen linken/mittleren Balken und rechten Balken.

Denk mal was los wäre wenn 90% der Nachrichten über die 100-te Milliarden die durch Steuerhinterziehung/u.ä., der Überreichen dem Staat verloren gehen.

Christian Schmidt Oct 22, 2025

@HoSnoopy @ErikUden

Und auch Du fällst auf die Erzählung der Rechtsnationalisten herein. Der rechte Balken zeigt nicht die Straftaten der in DE lebenden Menschen, sondern die dort begangenen. Denk mal an gesprengte Bankautomaten, Autodiebstahl oder Wohnungseinbrüche... und es sind Daten der Polizei, also Verdachtsfälle. Niemand berichtigt die, wenn das Verfahren durch einen Staatsanwalt eingestellt wird oder ein Richter einen Freispruch ausspricht.

Ulrich Popp

Oct 22, 2025

@christiansagt @ErikUden Ich gebe nur wieder, was da so reininterpretiert wird, das heißt ja nicht, daß ich das übernehme ;)

Christian Schmidt Oct 22, 2025

@HoSnoopy @ErikUden

Damit normalisierst Du das Narrativ.

@christiansagt @HoSnoopy @ErikUden

Helianthus Oct 22, 2025

Genau. Die Normalisierung eines Narrativs unter dem Deckmäntelchen der neutralen Berichterstattung ist unter den Medien weit verbreitet und sollte von deren Konsumenten (oder "Mitgestalter" im Falle von Kommentierern und/oder Nutzern "Sozialer Medien") nicht übernommen werden. Es reicht nicht aus "neutral" zu berichten und die Beendung eines damit angestossenen Gedankengangs den Lesern zu überlassen (so wie es z.B. der Feigling Merz ganz bewusst gemacht hat).

Klyx Oct 21, 2025

@ErikUden ich habe dazu eine einfache und klare Meinung: die Herkunft eines Täters ist meines Erachtens völlig egal - Straftat ist Straftat. Die Nennung der Herkunft ist im Zweifelsfall einfach nur Framing.
Bei der Statistik selbst fehlt mir aber auch noch etwas Kontext. Mindestens die Fragestellung, welche Art von Straftaten (unabhängig von der Herkunft des Täters) es überhaupt in dien Medien schaffen. Im Gegensatz dazu enthalten die Polizeistatistiken ja alle Straftaten. Dann Daten bereinigen.

Johann Oct 21, 2025

Ich stimme dir zu. Der Kontext zu den Statistiken fehlt. So kann man mehr mutmaßen als wirklich Schlüsse zu ziehen. Die Herkunft des Täters ist aus meiner Sicht aber nur solange egal, wie sie sich ausgewogen über die Täter verteilt. Sobald Menschen einer bestimmten Herkunft in der Statistik klar überrepräsentiert sind, muss man dem nachgehen, es ansprechen und entsprechend darauf reagieren.

X-tof Oct 21, 2025

@klyx @ErikUden kleine Korrektur: die Polizeistatistik beinhaltet grundsätzlich keine Straftaten, sondern nur das, was unsere (eher rassistisch geprägte und nicht besonders gut ausgebildete) Polizei als Straftat vermutet.
Zur Straftat wird es erst, wenn ein:e Richter:in entsprechend geurteilt hat und es nicht auf einen Freispruch oder eine Einstellung hinausläuft.
Es gibt allerdings keinen Rückkanal, der diese Polizeistatistik mit diesen Urteilen korrigiert.
Eines der vielen #Polizeiproblem|e.

outsidecontext 🇺🇦🕊️Oct 21, 2025

@x_tof @klyx @ErikUden Das. Und auch, dass in der Kriminalstatistik nicht zwischen Einwohnern und Besuchern unterschieden wird. Gerade Grenzstädte haben naturgemäß einen höheren Ausländeranteil in der Statistik.

Klyx Oct 21, 2025

@outsidecontext @x_tof @ErikUden und da komm ich wieder zu meinem initialen Argument zurück: Herkunft eines Täters ist im Grundsatz völlig egal. Täter ist Täter.

outsidecontext 🇺🇦🕊️Oct 21, 2025

@klyx @x_tof @ErikUden Genau, das sowieso. Wird immer nur zur Stimmungsmache genutzt. Einen tatsächlichen Nutzen sehe ich in der Info nicht.

Klyx Oct 21, 2025

@x_tof @ErikUden danke für die Richtigstellung - das ist natürlich im Rahmen der Unschuldsvermutung (zumindest so wie es theoretisch sein sollte) richtig und ärgerlich. Dank des fehlenden Rückkanals muss man natürlich eine Annahme oder einen best Guess treffen. Dass ist sicherlich auch verfälscht, bin ich bei dir.

horsetail Oct 22, 2025

@x_tof
@klyx

Geht es in dieser Statistik um Straftaten allgemein (also auch um Schwarzfahren) oder um Crimes, was ich als Verbrechen übersetzen würde?

Einen Link zur kompletten Studie fänd ich gut, @ErikUden

#Polizeiproblem

Stoneface Vimes Oct 21, 2025

@ErikUden I think we can pose the same question for practically every country's media

Gustavo Oct 21, 2025

@capnthommo @ErikUden Nah, I guess the only reason it rarely happens here in Brazil is because diversity: anyone from around the world can look like a Brazilian.

That being said, things are simpler here, people skip the scapegoat and go directly to the point: they blame the poor. It's the poor on welfare. It's the poor that voted wrong. It's the poor with their ugly houses.

@ErikUden is this per capita or total numbers? if total - that’s no good - foreigners are only 1/6th of the population if they are committing 1/3rd of the crime it’s an imbalance.

@DMTomas you do understand that racial profiling and discrimination is a thing

@ErikUden what does that have to do with numbers and math? Which can inform you which parts of society can be helped with directed social work and education programs?

@DMTomas where do you think the numbers come from? “Crime statistics” affect one another. If you're “concerned” about these statistics, you should still recognize that the media coverage is overblown. So, racist police officers are additionally manipulated into thinking that people of color are synonymous with crime, they check them more often, they may do something during police controls, and courts also have a huge bias against them and it's proven they give worse sentences if it's a person of color for the same crime. So, in crime statistics, marginalized groups will appear more violent, because these numbers are biased

@ErikUden I’m not for demonising any group - my city has just recently bacame much more diverse, and I am enjoying this shift. Having said that - we should not stop using numbers to inform us about decisions

Lillian Violet Oct 21, 2025

@DMTomas @ErikUden That's exactly the feedback loop you find yourself in that biases police against people of colour. Even if only one cop was racist and checked more PoC, since everyone does illegal things all the time without knowing (you too I promise), the stats will represent a slight uptick in "crime" for them. Then the police goes okay we put a little more effort into this group since they have a slightly higher chance to do crimes apparently. Which then pumps the numbers up even more for crime done by PoC, since they check them way more. Which feeds back into their prioritizing it more and the cycle continues. Basically these stats are useless without stats about how the police stop people and why, the bias reinforces itself.

Dave Mc Oct 21, 2025

@DMTomas @ErikUden because crime is linked to social deprivation and poverty. It's not caused by ethnic origin.

And regardless, the figures still demonstrate media bias.

Zenith Oct 21, 2025

A plain reading of the graphic suggests that 1/3rd of police reports ~that mention the suspect's origins~, not necessarily all reports (ie, when an immigrant is a suspect, they are more likely to include their origin than if they were a citizen)

Anreji

Oct 21, 2025

@DMTomas @ErikUden iirc when we're talking about "foreigners" here, a huge chunk of that are just tourists. those are obviously not listed as foreigners in the population statistics. also foreigners are more likely to be poor (due to racist hiring practices and policies that actively prevent foreigners from working) and most petty crime is committed by poor people. that's not a problem with foreigners, that's a problem with social injustice and class struggle. also also foreigners can commit "crimes" that native citizens can't commit, like crimes against the residence act, so foreigners are even more overrepresented.
and needless to say crime in general is declining since the 1990s

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Germany#Ethnic_minorities_and_migrant_background_(Migrationshintergrund)

dragonfrog Oct 21, 2025

@DMTomas @ErikUden
In 2023, German citizens without migrant background were 70% of the population of Germany and appear to commit about 66% of the police reported crimes; people with migrant background were 30% of the population and appear to commit about 34% of the police reported crimes.

That's pretty darn close to "crimes are committed by people regardless of where they're from"

Demographics of Germany - Wikipedia

dragonfrog Oct 21, 2025

@DMTomas @ErikUden As far as I can tell, your figure of 85% "Germans" / 15% "foreigners" refers not to country of origin but ethnicity - so people who are ethnically German but were born in other countries and moved to Germany make up an additional 15% of the population. They're also "foreigners", for a total of 30% "foreigners" in Germany.

@dragonfrog @ErikUden ow, I was mislead by google’s robot - asked it for numbers of citizens and number of non-citizen resident - got about this distinction could you share the real numbers then please - and/or an answer if the original chart was calculated per capita.

dragonfrog Oct 21, 2025

@DMTomas @ErikUden I admit I referred to the Wikipedia article without checking the sources, but it's explained in there

@dragonfrog @ErikUden did not knew about this data, speaks about different terms - suspicion vs conviction. But agree, this data shows much more negligible difference, that could be explained by biases or other irregularities.

Piko Starsider

Oct 22, 2025

@DMTomas @ErikUden now separate young adult men from the rest of the population and re-analyze the data. Last time I did (for my country, Spain), it resolved all discrepancies: the overwhelming majority of crime is committed by men aged between 18 and 40, and the proportion of foreigners in this group is of about 30%, extremely similar to the proportion of crime here, too.

@ErikUden This makes sense, you only mention what's distinctive about a person.

If there's a news report about domestic violence, the report won't emphasize that the couple had no kids, was not religious, was not famous, or that neither of the participants had any mental illness. If the couple has nine kids, are scientologists, are well-known celebrities and the man is known to have addiction issues, all of those will appear in the news report.

If a German commits a crime in Germany, there's no need to say that a German committed the crime, that is implied. If it's a foreigner doing it, that's something distinctive about the situation.

@ErikUden It's true that it causes people to draw the wrong conclusions though, just as news reporting on plane crashes and nuclear disasters causes people to have the wrong ideas about the safety of aviation and nuclear reactors.

Lillian Violet Oct 21, 2025

@miki @ErikUden Germans can be brown or black, the default German isn't white.

@GLaDTheresCake @ErikUden Nobody mentioned skin color here, this discussion is about German vs. foreigner. At least here (Poland), that info is usually available in police reports, and doesn't have to be implied from skin color.

Em & future cats 🇺🇦🐈🏳️‍🌈Oct 21, 2025

@miki @GLaDTheresCake @ErikUden Unlike over here in america.. jeeez I wish we would get over it already! This country (america) is so racist and has continued to be since it was created 😿

@em_and_future_cats @GLaDTheresCake @ErikUden I don't know what you're refering to specifically, but America is actually a lot more transparent about crime (to its detriment).

Whereas in Europe, a lot of information is withheld for privacy reasons, in the US, any somewhat competent reporter can access most police reports in their entirety, including mugshots and unredacted names of the accused, which they're allowed to publish *before* that person is convicted by a jurry of their peers.

Em & future cats 🇺🇦🐈🏳️‍🌈Oct 21, 2025

@miki @GLaDTheresCake @ErikUden
True… I think what I’m referring to is frequently you hear a report over here talking about a crime they will *very often* say what their skin color or ethnicity is. I’ve noticed that when the person is “white” they (reporters) often just refer to their age and gender … that’s what I think I was trying to get at … however this is just what I’ve observed and could be skewed just in the observation.

NoBorg Oct 21, 2025

@ErikUden

Maybe you have a Media Bias website for German media that you can share?
And if it's not biased, it's just irresponsible media, thinking just about their own profits ( Like X, Facebook and other online social media that wants to profit from sensationalism and fear).

@hadon that's a good question! What I can say is that most German media is right wing or far right.

Ulrich O.Oct 21, 2025

@ErikUden @hadon
I disagree. The media outlets connected to Springer or Welt certainly fulfill your criteria.

Public media may be swayed, but they are far from being far right. If you want to take a look at far right media, spend some time on Fox News.

The German media landscape is far from being perfect, but it offers more diversity than that of so many other countries.

NoBorg Oct 21, 2025

@obucate @ErikUden
I tried to look up Springer but the database gave me only SpringerLink and I don't know if that's the same you referred to. Anyhow, SpringerLink is rated as reliable (HIGH), pro-science:
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/springerlink-bias/

SpringerLink - Bias and Credibility

PRO-SCIENCE These sources consist of legitimate science or are evidence-based through credible scientific sourcing. Legitimate science follows the scientific method, is unbiased, and does not use emotional words. These sources also respect the consensus of experts in the given scientific field and strive to publish peer-reviewed science. Some sources in this category may have a slight political bias but adhere

Media Bias/Fact Check

flyinggecko Oct 21, 2025

@hadon @obucate @ErikUden Springer is the company owning some news papers and tabloids and so on. One newspaper would be "Die Welt" which you can find here: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/die-welt/ Another one would be "Die Bildzeitung" which actually isn't a real newspaper but a tabloid.

NoBorg Oct 21, 2025

@ErikUden
I know about this site that rates media bias and looked for the Deutsche Welle, got results! :D So, maybe you guys can look up other German Media and then make a list according to their bias, so that more people could be informed ;)

here:
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/dw-news/

Deutsche Welle (DW) News - Bias and Credibility

LEFT-CENTER BIAS These media sources have a slight to moderate liberal bias. They often publish factual information that utilizes loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by using appeal to emotion or stereotypes) to favor liberal causes. These sources are generally trustworthy for information but may require further investigation. See all Left-Center sources. Overall, we rate Deutsche Welle

Media Bias/Fact Check

Lars Oct 21, 2025

@ErikUden @hadon You can say that, but that doesn't make it true.

I think such a statement shows your personal bias more than the institutional bias you claim.

If you define the center as right, your statement magically becomes correct.

horsetail Oct 22, 2025

@luatic
Isn't it the question where you move the #overtonwindow ?

@ErikUden @hadon

XCM Oct 21, 2025

@hadon @ErikUden
Most media use that tactic.
Outrage is amongst the biggest drivers of engagement

Mina Oct 21, 2025

@ErikUden

Dazu muss man noch erwähnen, dass es keine bundesweite Statistik zu Verurteilungen und eingestellten Verfahren gibt.

Die wäre ja noch interessanter als die PKS.

Gibt's aber nicht. Liegt wohl nicht im öffentlichen Interesse.

Noah Oct 21, 2025

@ErikUden If 15% of the population are foreigners, but 30% of the crimes are committed by foreigners, then foreigners are more likely to commit crimes. Does that mean we should discriminate these people? No. Of course not. But there will always be some groups of people being slightly more criminal then others. Maybe because they experienced war or other traumatizing things. So we should help these people as much as possible.

Martin Vermeer 86 47 Oct 21, 2025

@noah @ErikUden One obvious reason is that the population of immigrants is much younger than that of native Germans. Most crimes are committed by young males.

@martinvermeer @noah also racial profiling and court bias 🚩

kravietz 🦇Oct 21, 2025

@noah

They don’t need to be “traumatized”. They just may come from a society where ruled by tribal or religious laws and have not socialised the European concepts of rule of law.

Is it their fault? No, but the concept of “anyone’s fault” is irrelevant if you look at the consequences of letting large amounts of people who reject the idea of rule of law into a society that is built on it.

Anyone should be welcome to EU but they must be explained the rules of the European community and must explicitly declare readiness to comply with them.

@ErikUden

Eric Oct 21, 2025

@ErikUden I guess this isn't just an American thing

Adam Jacobs 🇺🇦Oct 21, 2025

@ErikUden That's sad to see, though unfortunately not at all surprising.

I haven't seen any comparable figures for where I am in the UK, though I expect it would be pretty similar. Albeit probably with fewer Germans and more Brits.

marionline Oct 21, 2025

@ErikUden ist es noch so, dass z.b. Asylantragsteller ihren Ort nicht verlassen dürfen, sonst ist das eine Straftat?

"Wissenschaftliche Dienste Sachstand
WD 3 - 3000 - 221/20
Seite 4
2. Freizügigkeit von Asylsuchenden
Einem Ausländer, der in Deutschland um Asyl nachsucht (Asylsuchender), wird gemäß § 55 Abs. 1,
§ 63 Abs. 1 AsylG eine sog. Aufenthaltsgestattung erteilt. Asylsuchende, die ihren Asylantrag durch
persönliche Vorsprache gestellt haben, sind verpflichtet, während ihres Aufenthaltes in der zuge-
wiesenen Aufnahmeeinrichtung für die Zeit bis längstens 18 Monate zu wohnen (§ 47 AsylG). Aus
dieser Wohnpflicht resultiert in dieser Zeit auch die Einschränkung der Bewegungsfreiheit auf den
Bezirk der Ausländerbehörde, in dem die Aufnahmeeinrichtung sich befindet (§ 56 Abs. 1 AsylG).7" Quelle: https://www.bundestag.de/resource/blob/813906/4aead3a9db099d08b5adfc8ff080635a/WD-3-221-20-pdf.pdf

Ich bin kein Jurist, aber ich habe mal gehört dass solche "Straftaten" auch in die Statistik fallen.

@marionline Exakt. Solche Statistiken sind höchst Fragwürdig, umso schlimmer das sie dennoch von den Medien überspitzt werden.