Solarpunk Presents Podcast

8.1: Ariel & Christina Discuss: What History Says About What It Takes to Level Inequality

We like to think that a rising tide lifts all boats. But, according to Stanford University historian Dr. Walter Scheidel, wealth and income inequality have almost always only grown drastically toward the maximum level a society can sustain in times of peace and prosperity. Instead, as he outlined in his book The Great Leveler: Violence and the History of Inequality from the Stone Age to the Twenty-First Century, true leveling of inequality between, for example, the rich and the poor, has almost always happened as a result of exceptionally catastrophically violent events that take the lives of a good chunk of the population (see, for instance: the Black Death, World War II, and the communist revolutions of the 21st century).

This has shattered Christina’s previously strong faith in democracy, and we discuss just how and why that happened. Does human society stand any chance of leveling inequality voluntarily, intentionally, and peacefully, which is to say, without having to go through an event of widespread death, turmoil, destruction, and suffering? Join us as we wonder whether, in order to reach a solarpunk future world of justice, equality, and harmony, we will ever be able to escape this historical pattern.

https://youtu.be/UPmuTB32jv8

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Sep 8 at 12:00pmWeb
Show threadDivitiacusSep 18
@solarpunkpresents
Thank you for this episode and the book suggestions which I will definitely use.
The conclusions from the book were first surprising to me but hearing them laid out in detail and in a historic context it created the feeling that I just ignored the signs in the past.
I would like to shine some lights on this topic from a different angle. A few years ago I tried to read up about ideal communities/societies. There are some utopian books, you did talk about a few episodes ago, but I was also interested in actual examples, wherher it is monks, European settlers in America or hippies. Over and over again in history people tried to start fresh trying to start a new community. I am not a historian but from what I learned all these communities either fell apart or survived only with a very hierarchical, maybe authoritarian, structure which is inequal. I don't know of any example of a fully self-sustaining large community which treats her members equally
Show threadDivitiacusSep 18

which survived even for one generation, if not for several.
My conclusion from this is that there is a fundamental dichotomy between equality and individual freedom. People are different and there will always be some which are more skilled either on the crafting side or the rhetoric side/people skills then others. These people will get a slight advantage over others which will get larger and larger over time. This advantage will be inherited by their kids and so over generations it will create more inequality. That small differences in an equilibrated system can over time create large imbalances is also observed in physical systems.

How can you avoid that? You can create laws which equilibrate (90% tax rate for rich, state-owned companies) but this will restrict individual freedom. The more equal you want to make the community the more restrictive/authoritarian you have to be. The more you try to respect individual freedom the more inequal the community will become.

The other option is @solarpunkpresents

Show threadDivitiacusSep 18

that people constrain themselves individually for the better of the community without the enforcement of restricting laws. For smaller communities that might work for a while but it requires rigorous indoctrination of these values and even then if the community gets to large that everyone's actions are always visible, it will fall apart.
Furthermore self-restraint always works when there is not a lot of stress on a community (hunger, moral differences) but if there is people switch very quickly to more self-serving behaviors when this restraint is not enforced.

Long story short, even the history of egalitarian communes confirms the assessment that developing more inequal societies is a natural tendency for humankind.

By the way, for me the question "Is it even possible that humans can live in an equal society?" is for me very similar to the question "Are humans able to live in a no growth society?" which often comes up in climate change discussion. Also there the answer must be "No." @solarpunkpresents

Show threadDivitiacusSep 18
Never in history did humans lived in a society which didn't utilize more resources than the environment could create for them. @solarpunkpresents
Show threadSolarpunk Presents PodcastSep 18
@divitiacus it is sobering to realize. My thoughts are that just because it does not seem probable does not mean that we should stop our efforts towards being better to each other. I don't have systemic solutions, though.
Show threadDivitiacusSep 19
@solarpunkpresents
That there is no systemic solution just means there is no set of rules which guarantees equality if people not actively and personally are invested in it. If members of a society constantly seeking an advantage over others and are not caring about the needs of others in the society an equal society is not possible.
I always thought that it is a failure of the US laws that they require restraint from the president to keep democracy intact but on the other hand a self-governed society needs this respect for the ideals of the system from everybody otherwise it cannot be maintained, no matter what rule system is in place.
Therefore to your point, we have to convince people again that it is worth caring about other people until that creates a shift in society, so that equality becomes a goal for many again.