Bill the LizardAug 13, 2025
Narrator voice: It was, in fact, 10,000 lines of bug-filled crap.
Show threadEv Delen

@lizardbill

I'm reminded of how IBM used to try to quantify coding for the purposes of promotion and bonuses:

It started with KLOC, which incentivized developers to write long, unwieldy code to juice up their LOC count.

So then it became Code Density, which incentivized developers to write a single line of inscrutably dense but functional code.

Finally they just gave up!

Yeah, so line count is not a measure of quality by any means whatsoever!

cc @pluralistic

Aug 13, 2025 at 1:05pmWeb
Show threadCory DoctorowAug 13, 2025

@evdelen @lizardbill

Bill Gates called IBM's method of paying programmers by the line of code, "The race to build the world's heaviest airplane."

Show threadafxAug 13, 2025
@pluralistic @evdelen @lizardbill
Where does that come from? Not during my time at the IBM lab...
Show threadCory DoctorowAug 13, 2025

@afx @evdelen @lizardbill

I believe the quote is from the mid-1980s.

Show threadAshwin DixitAug 13, 2025

@pluralistic @afx @evdelen @lizardbill

Other anecdotes:

1) IBM managers realized that programmers were just sitting there typing on keyboards, and getting paid a lot more than typists, for ( what they thought ) was a similar, slightly more technical job. So IBM starts firing programmers and replacing them with typists, with some training thrown in.

2) Airconditioning failed at an IBM office and programmers had to seek management approval to take off the ties ( they all wore business suits ).

Show threadClayfootAug 13, 2025
@purrperl @pluralistic @afx @evdelen @lizardbill My mother was one of those punch card programmers. She moved to Florida, tried to get a job, and was told, "We don't hire women as programmers." So, she took one of those keypunch operator jobs, instead.
Show threadAshwin DixitAug 13, 2025

@clayfoot @pluralistic @afx @evdelen @lizardbill

Ironic, since the first computer programmer was a woman ( Ada Lovelace ).

Show threadWulfy—Speaker to the machinesAug 14, 2025

@purrperl @pluralistic @afx @evdelen @lizardbill

Huge culture change at #IBM was when they started wearing Polo shorts...

... Everyone was wearing Polo shirts so it became the new uniform
🙄

Show threadALAug 14, 2025

@n_dimension @purrperl @pluralistic @afx @evdelen @lizardbill

I was there when the memo came out that the board of directors had a meeting and they were formally changing the corp dress code to be no dress code. It took a meeting and a vote to decide to not so something. I had stopped wearing a tie months early when I noticed that half the folks in a meeting had ties and half didnt.

Show threadJB (he/him)Aug 14, 2025
@n_dimension @purrperl @pluralistic @afx @evdelen @lizardbill there must be an IBM dress code timeline on the Web somewhere? I was there in 1991 +/- a year when, at the RTP offices, we got a memo authorizing "casual Friday" which meant no tie required
Show threadDawn AhukannaAug 14, 2025
@jbm3 @n_dimension @purrperl @pluralistic @afx @evdelen @lizardbill
Show threadTony FiskAug 14, 2025
@n_dimension @purrperl @pluralistic @afx @evdelen @lizardbill
Show thread💡𝚂𝗆𝖺𝗋𝗍𝗆𝖺𝗇 𝙰𝗉𝗉𝗌📱Aug 13, 2025
@pluralistic @evdelen @lizardbill
"the world's heaviest airplane" - sadly Microsoft still thinks reinventing the wheel is better than fixing bugs. Witness the Windows 11 abomination.
Show thread💡𝚂𝗆𝖺𝗋𝗍𝗆𝖺𝗇 𝙰𝗉𝗉𝗌📱Aug 14, 2025
@pluralistic @evdelen @lizardbill
Or in this case re-inventing the world's heaviest airplane 😂
Show threadEstarriol, Terrorist DragonAug 13, 2025

@evdelen @lizardbill @pluralistic

wasn't the K'Loc a Klingon battlecruiser?

Show threadWild Eyed Boy From FreecloudAug 13, 2025

@evdelen @lizardbill @pluralistic I'll never forget my 1st experience with KLOCs.

Boss: How many lines of code will this be?
Me: Um, Idunno, 1000.
later...
Boss: How many lines of code have you written?
Me: 250.
Boss: So, you're 1/4 done?
Me: Sure?

While KLOCs are completely useless, like every other software measurement, they had the advantage of being *quick* and relatively painless to produce.

Show threadEv DelenAug 13, 2025

@WildEyedBoyFromFreecloud @lizardbill @pluralistic

Manager: Why does this application load a Lorem Ipsum generator?

Coder: Line Count!

Show threadLog 🪵Aug 13, 2025
@WildEyedBoyFromFreecloud @evdelen @lizardbill @pluralistic
25% done: 500 LoC
50% done: 2000 LoC
75% done: 12000 LoC
100% done: 8000 LoC
125% done: 4000 LoC
150% done: 2000 LoC
200% done: 1 LoC (The OS or a library project implemented this feature.)
Show threadsmolwaffleAug 13, 2025
@log
Every piece of software contains at least one bug.
Every piece of software can be reduced in length by one line.
Therefore, every piece of software can be reduced to one line with a bug in it.
@WildEyedBoyFromFreecloud @evdelen @lizardbill @pluralistic
Show threadploumAug 13, 2025

@WildEyedBoyFromFreecloud @evdelen @lizardbill @pluralistic : the point is not to produce *good code*. It never was.

The point is to built something shiny enough to be sold to Meta/Google/Microsoft because execs at those companies *think* it could become a competitor.

And for those executives, a product with a gazillion LOC is seen as "potentially scary so we should buy it".

That’s the whole business of Paul Graham. It is no software development. It never was.

Show threadAndy BuckleyAug 13, 2025
@ploum @WildEyedBoyFromFreecloud @evdelen @lizardbill @pluralistic Like the vast majority of patents. Not registered for intrinsic value, but laying landmines for volume-based leverage in bulk licensing
Show threadploumAug 13, 2025
@agbuckley @WildEyedBoyFromFreecloud @evdelen @lizardbill @pluralistic : https://ploum.net/working-with-patents/index.html
My experience working with patents

My experience working with patents par Ploum - Lionel Dricot.

Show threadRich Puchalsky ⩜⃝Aug 13, 2025

@WildEyedBoyFromFreecloud

You break the project down into functions, you eyeball the purpose of each function and guess how hard it's going to be based on experience, you write the functions. After the breaking down and estimating work, you have a good idea of how far you are through by which functions you've finished.

Show threadjelteAug 13, 2025
@WildEyedBoyFromFreecloud @evdelen @lizardbill @pluralistic Some of the best development sessions are when you end up with less LOC than you started out with.
Show threadMatt BoehmAug 13, 2025
@evdelen
It's weirdly not even a good measure of size.
@lizardbill @pluralistic
Show threadDubi is here Aug 13, 2025
@evdelen @lizardbill @pluralistic I'm not sure the comparison is fair. There's a difference between measuring myself by a certain indicator for self improvement (internal motivation) and imposing an indicator to facilitate incentives (external motivation). The founder has no incentive to produce unnecessary code - nobody will give him a bonus for it.
Show threadEv DelenAug 13, 2025

@Dubikan @lizardbill @pluralistic

@ploum made a great point here:

https://mamot.fr/@ploum/115021960673658871

TL;DR: Yes, arguably a Founder does have an incentive to produce a high LOC count.

ploum (@[email protected])

@[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @pluralistic : the point is not to produce *good code*. It never was. The point is to built something shiny enough to be sold to Meta/Google/Microsoft because execs at those companies *think* it could become a competitor. And for those executives, a product with a gazillion LOC is seen as "potentially scary so we should buy it". That’s the whole business of Paul Graham. It is no software development. It never was.

Mamot - Le Mastodon de La Quadrature du Net
Show threadChristopher DrumAug 13, 2025
@evdelen @lizardbill @pluralistic
This story about Bill Atkinson producing negative lines of code seems appropriate for this thread.
https://www.folklore.org/Negative_2000_Lines_Of_Code.html
Folklore.org: -2000 Lines Of Code

Show threadALAug 13, 2025

@evdelen @lizardbill @pluralistic
that sorta tracks with my experience. KLOC measurement was not as formal as this sounds but it was a thing. When I was asked about this metric I insisted on including comments. I wanted the folks writing for and with me to feel that well commented code had value.

There was also a number running around like the average programmer wrote 3 lines of code a day. Which was sorta true, we spent a lot of time in meetings. Design meetings good, mgnt meetings bad.

Show threadcaracabeAug 14, 2025
@lizardbill @mral @pluralistic @evdelen
I worked at a place that employed a variety of metrics: lines of code, number of pull requests, number of bug tickets opened on code, etc. All used to deny pay increases in annual reviews, for all developers.
Show threadALAug 14, 2025
@caracabe @lizardbill @pluralistic @evdelen
Yea it was always about lowering pay not raising it.
Show threadBai ShenAug 14, 2025
@evdelen @lizardbill @pluralistic There's also this incident at Apple of -2000 LOC. https://www.folklore.org/Negative_2000_Lines_Of_Code.html
Folklore.org: -2000 Lines Of Code