David Gerardgosh, who the fuck could have seen this coming
(please do not bootlick itch.io in my replies, you are under no obligation whatsoever to do that)
ResunaIt's amazing how many people come out of the woodwork white-knighting for companies that are doing sketchy stuff.
flere-imsaho 🇺🇦@resuna @davidgerard you won't be surprised that we had a do-gooder from oc.todon.fr issuing a correction request through our moderation interface.
i wrote a quick note explaining that we're not using that channel for such purposes
flere-imsaho 🇺🇦 (@mawhrin@circumstances.run)
\*dons the admin hat\* we'd like to inform our esteemed correspondents from the oc.todon.fr instance that the corrections of the misinformation, if any are needed, are not to be submitted through the moderation interface – unless the misinformation issue is systemic. please also note that different interpretations of third party actions do not constitute misinformation *per se*. thanks for your co-operation. \*doffs the admin hat\*
Midnight Spire Games@davidgerard Oh, that took like, a day? That must be a record for falling down that slippery slope.
Dag Ågren ↙︎↙︎↙︎@davidgerard I thought they were kind of clear in their announcement that taking things down was temporary while they work out how to deal with the situation though?
Matt Palmer@WAHa_06x36 there is nothing so permanent as a temporary emergency.
Ms Ngo@WAHa_06x36 @davidgerard “The situation”? I don’t understand, what’s the situation? That LGBTQIA+ people exist?
@causticmsngo @davidgerard The situation is that their payment processor is threatening them.
@WAHa_06x36 @davidgerard It may be a lot to ask of a small company like Itch.io, but it might have been more effective to refuse to comply & let the processor cut them off. More people would have complained to their banks in larger numbers than the Nazis who instigated this.
It continues to be true that there is no ethical consumption under capitalism.
@causticmsngo @davidgerard I don't think they'd have the resources to survive that, though. That is playing dangerous games with a lot more people's income. There really is no good choice in that situation.
@WAHa_06x36 @davidgerard It’s also true that it’s unethical to comply. If they had said “no representation of mixed race relationships” or “nothing critical of Christianity”, I think it would have been obvious the right thing to do is refuse.
When it comes to LGBTQ & especially trans stuff, people suddenly loose their convictions.
I am deeply disappointed in anyone who willingly goes along with this.
@causticmsngo @davidgerard Is it obvious, though? Both choices hurt people, in different numbers and different ways. It’s a trolley problem, and neither choice is fully moral.
@WAHa_06x36 @davidgerard To me it is; the harm is being perpetrated by the processor. Going along with it makes you complicit in that harm.
@WAHa_06x36 @davidgerard I don’t understand why it would be immoral to refuse to remove LGBTQ content. Maybe I don’t understand what you mean?
@causticmsngo @davidgerard If they refuse, they get cut off from payments, which makes the company die in short order, which means you cut off the income stream for both your employees and for all the people selling games through the store. And I think for a lot of people itch.io is basically the only option they have for selling things.
@WAHa_06x36 @davidgerard I understand it takes some courage, but I do believe folks would find that courage if the discrimination was directed towards other minorities. Just not this one, apparently.
@causticmsngo It's no really courage, though. It's that by letting the company die, you materially hurt innocent people by depriving them of their income. Even if you were ready yourself to sacrifice the work you put into building the company, you are not just sacrificing yourself.
@WAHa_06x36 @davidgerard You’re assuming that would be the result, but we don’t actually know that.
But, even if it was, I suspect they would have been willing to take a harder stand if they had said to remove Jewish content, or African American content, or conservative content, or similar. But not LGBTQ content. It’s disappointing.
@causticmsngo Not much assuming needed, I don't think. If your payment processor cuts you off, you can't take payments, and you die very quickly, and even before you die, you can't do any sales so none of the people using your market will get paid.
This is just a ridiculous imbalance of power with payment processors in modern e-commerce. If they say jump, you jump, or you die.
@WAHa_06x36 I suspect there is leverage to be had, if they had wanted to push back.
Look they made their choice to be complicit. But it is a punch in the gut to see how easily people trade rights for trans or other LGBTQ people for convenience.
@causticmsngo Is there? They are tiny company. Much bigger companies like Steam already got hit and folded just as fast. The power imbalance is just massive.
And again, it's not convenience, it's survival.
@WAHa_06x36 @causticmsngo Then perish, frankly. They don't get to walk back the thing they actively chose to do. It is important to invoke a *substantial* social penalty for this action.
@davidgerard @causticmsngo What good would that do though? That means even more people are out of a place to sell their works, and the fascists win anyway.
There isn't a good option here, other than getting payment processors regulated so they can't pull this shit.
@WAHa_06x36 @davidgerard That’s a tough position to get behind if I’m being honest - “I’m willing to sacrifice this smaller group for the benefit of this larger group.”
Like I said, I hope you never find yourself in that situation where people are willing to hurt you so as not to hurt themselves.
@causticmsngo But the only rights in question here is the right to make money through itch. And they had the horrible choice to sacrifice some people, or to sacrifice *all* people.
The people hurt by choosing the "some" option would have been just as hurt by choosing the other option.
The people *actually* making a choice to hurt people are the payment processors. They are the ones that should be taking the full blame here.
@WAHa_06x36 Oh I agree is the payment processors doing the harm. Going along makes you complicit.
Would you agree with the choice if you were one of the people who had their stuff targeted? Is there a minority who’s rights aren’t worth giving away in this way?
@causticmsngo If I was a minority being targeted here, it wouldn't matter what choice they made, I'd be fucked either way.
I don't think I'd demand that more people be fucked along with me, though.
@WAHa_06x36 @causticmsngo That should be blitheringly obvious and you're being thick if you can't see that a particular group making it as radioactive as possible to throw them under the bus is beneficial.
Frankly, please stop answering this thread at all. You're being fatuous and offensive.
@davidgerard @causticmsngo It’s a good point, but it still does not sit right to do this by attacking someone who is also a victim and has no realistic options.
@WAHa_06x36 Shame on Steam, doubly so.
I know you’re trying to excuse the decision. It’s probably true they weren’t willing to take the financial risk. It also true the money was worth more than the rights of some of their partners.
Hopefully you never find yourself in a position where your rights are worth less than someone else’s access to some money.
@WAHa_06x36 just happening to hit the gays is not a thing you should feel obliged to dive in and construct an excuse for, per the note in the original
@davidgerard I think it's fair to cash in some accumulated goodwill here for a company that has been massively supportive for a long time, and assume they are not doing that just because.
Glyph@davidgerard @AlSweigart which books have been taken down? Is there an announcement about this too?