#StorytellingPSA

Once more, for the people in the back:

An "epic hero" (*cough* Odysseus *cough*) is not an "epic hero" because they are a role model that does everything right. They were never meant to be an unproblematic fandom icon.

People bending themselves into pretzels to prove Odysseus (and others) never did anything wrong, questionable, or "problematic" are doing a disservice and flattening mythology into fan fiction.

Said what I said.

#mythology #Storytelling

Side note: I got nothing against creative retellings. I have several favorites.

What I do have feelings against is people coming at me online with "if it's not in Homer it's not canon!" and "the ACTUAL ancient sources say..." without citing any.

You either are doing a creative retelling, OR you got to know the actual ancient sources you are referencing. Pick a lane.

Second side note: we have done too much work trying to redeem and reframe women in Homer's epics just to go back to "ooh those evil scheming wily women are trapping poor innocent men!"

#mythology

@TarkabarkaHolgy

If only. I mean, evil scheming wily women sounds like an _excellent_ basis for a system of government.

@TarkabarkaHolgy Your post reminded me of Claire North's 'Songs of Penelope' trilogy. The women (and goddesses) are wonderful and complex.
@TarkabarkaHolgy tldr: Han shot first.

@thekitmalone @TarkabarkaHolgy

Did y'all hear Chris Nolan's next move is "The Odyssey"?

@Uair @thekitmalone oh yeah :D With the tagline "Defy the gods" lol

@TarkabarkaHolgy

Nice. I did not know that.

@Uair yeah except the entire point of the Odyssey is that defying the gods is a very, very bad idea...

@TarkabarkaHolgy

Don't I know it.

@Uair @TarkabarkaHolgy Defy the Gods and get lost at sea, lose all of your friends in the process, and become a sex slave for 7 years.
@TarkabarkaHolgy @Uair better fy the gods

@lritter @TarkabarkaHolgy

Well, I'm gonna die with both middle fingers raised at the sky, but I have to say, it hasn't worked out any better for me than it did for Odysseus.

@Uair @TarkabarkaHolgy been curious if "fying" the gods means anything, and apparently the meaning of defy matches most closely "distrust" so it checks out.

@lritter

Are you asking if I meant anything specific? I kinda did.

https://autistics.life/@Uair/114849213543339798

Poloniousmonk (@Uair@autistics.life)

#introduction Time for another introduction. I'm one of those fucked-up human experiments the CIA got up to in the 70s. I was never allowed any social support or validation. About the only messaging I've gotten from my people is, "fuck off and die", and it generally wasn't delivered gently. It was delivered on the end of a boot. I got the ninja childhood and was supposed to be an assassin for the intelligence agencies. They had me brutalized from birth to toughen me up. They went too far, though. I got tough enough to solve my problems without violence. I have a fifty year track record of peaceful conflict resolution. I'm not a pacifist, it's just the violence usually causes the next problem. The last time I tried to "do", rather than simply "be", I tried to go to Liberia to get kidnapped by a warlord. I'm fully confident I could have talked my way out of that situation, but they wouldn't sell me a ticket. I ended up bottoming out in South Africa, a country with 7x the US murder rate and a flourishing arms industry. Spent a month or two on the streets and in homeless shelters. I did fine. I generally get respect in proportion to how dangerous somebody actually is. I've known a lot of very, very dangerous people in my day. I'm one of those people who lives outside the law and follows his own moral code. I'm allowed to do any crime I want and I know I'll never see the inside of a courtroom. I have a head full of state secrets that can never be spoken on any kind of formal record. I just don't want to crime. I mastered that shit as a teenager. It's why they were never able to entrap and enslave me. I just want a little life now. I spend my life drunk, and alone in a room. So I'm pretty legendary among the world's spooks. And, for some reason I haven't figured out, Hollywood. That has something to do with role models, and the fact that atheists aren't allowed to be one, at least until recently. Feel free to shed some light if you know. Monty Python's "Life of Brian" was named after me, and Luke Skywalker's vague hero's journey was another projection of how my life might turn out. The Eric Cartman character is who Stone and Parker expected me to be--I was the onliest of only children, and raised by the whore the state used to neutralize my father--but I used to smoke weed with their drug dealer and they found out I'm a solidly decent guy. I pretty much only and always operate out of positive motivations, so they elevated Butters. I'm Butters. Lately, there's been a rash of entertainment inspired by me. The movie "Nobody" was so overtly about me it's how I learned I inspire movies. I wrote half of that one and did the other half. Ryan Gosling seems to have taken a shine to me--"The Grey Man" and "The Fall Guy" are basically giant Easter Eggs about my life. Ryan Gosling is what I would look like if I was pretty. Really, I'm like the Kevin Spacey character from 'American Beauty'. I test high for forgettability. It's a useful trait in an assassin. I'm also dead silent when I walk. I recently accidentally snuck up on a pit bull and got bit. Ninja. Anyhoo, the Black Mirror episode "Joan is Awful" is about how I've been character assassinated. Hell, they even fictionalized my old girlfriend into a movie called "Class Rank". Every time they try to take me out and I come out on top, my legend grows. Last time, they had me hit by an SUV by fucking with the traffic lights. Multiple fractures of multiple vertebrate at both impact points, but I reacted like a stunt man and presented my back flat to the bumper. This way I didn't torsion and didn't suffer any nerve damage. I didn't know about the traffic light thing yet, but I have good instincts in high stress situations and could tell it wasn't the drunk kid's fault, so I told her to get out of there before she got jammed up with the law. I just went home and sat still in a chair for a couple months. It knocked an inch and a half off my height, but I'm still walking. These days I walk around in the center of a web of local and federal agents. I understand. I'm extremely dangerous. They literally don't make people as dangerous as me any more. Clinton canceled the ninja program. I choose not to be dangerous, but they're worried I might choose otherwise someday. What I chose was to be a scholar and a philosopher. I'm an autodidactic polymath who's been at it for over forty years now. I'm hyperlexical and started reading Stephen King in second grade. I read "The Executioner's Song" in fourth and "The World According to Garp" in fifth. I'm a little weak on the math based side of life because I need a teacher for that, but I did pass calculus without much effort. Twice. I'm as close to Diogenes the Cynic as you'll get for somebody who grew up with indoor plumbing. He's the waybackest person of which I know that had it figured out. Oh, and I know my way around a computer. I worked in tech three blocks South of Wall Street. Oh yeah! I'm better at getting high than most people you'll meet. I once took 1200 mics of old-school LSD 25 and rode it just fine. This probably reads like crazy talk, but it's all true. It's who I am. It's my identity, and sometimes I just have to sing out. I'm still not allowed any social support or validation. I'm not even allowed a therapist. Just rotgut vodka, qBittorrented movies, and some video games that I'm too old and drunk to play well. I have one autistic friend who helps me, and I read books over the phone to a blind Indian. That's my life. I miss women. I was good at love. I fall easily and am totally honest and open about it. I'm totally straight but gender-queer. I'd say I'm 55% yin to 45% yang. For now I'm working on getting a cat. I want some goddamn thing to love. Wish me luck. This guy also got the ninja childhood. His government did the same kind of shit to him as a kid that mine did to me. You can kinda tell he's more than just a performer, he's got real fire in his belly. Video by Neil Blomkamp: https://inv.nadeko.net/watch?v=HcXNPI-IPPM

Autistics Life Community
@Uair oh sorry that was not a direct reply to what you said. i am just playing linguistic games and have no strong opinion one way or the other on whether to trust or distrust gods, how many gods there are, what they are or if they exist at all, although i have a pet model that i am not ready to advertise.

@TarkabarkaHolgy @Uair @thekitmalone

I'm not particularly versed in Greek mythology and epics, but from what little I do know, that seems like a remarkably bad suggestion in that context. Has that _ever_ gone well for anyone?

@skjeggtroll @Uair @thekitmalone nope, not even a little

@TarkabarkaHolgy @Uair @thekitmalone

I didn't think so. The impression I've gotten is that in most mythos, if you defy or trick the gods you're likely going to be in for a bad time, but the Greek gods _in particular_ seem to take it personal.

@skjeggtroll @TarkabarkaHolgy @Uair @thekitmalone Even the gods get to regret defying the other gods in Greek mythology. We mere mortals don't exactly stand a chance under the circumstances.

@TarkabarkaHolgy @skjeggtroll @thekitmalone

The thing is, I was raised antitheist atheist and can't take the idea of any gods seriously.

@Uair @TarkabarkaHolgy @skjeggtroll well, Zeus takes you seriously so
@thekitmalone @Uair @TarkabarkaHolgy @skjeggtroll One could even say Zeus seriously takes you, so...
@TarkabarkaHolgy Yes, 'epic' has lost its true meaning. As an art historian this is how I feel for 'iconic' too, for instance.

@SonjaS lol

"She's an icon"
"Kpop?"
"Byzantine."

@TarkabarkaHolgy Especially since Odysseus is pretty much ALL problematic, with maybe a few redeeming features in between.

I miss when we gave kids an education.

@slothrop The general trend against complex characters and complex plotlines has actual real world consequences. I swear that's gonna be my next TED talk.
@TarkabarkaHolgy Given that TED can rightfully be seen as a significant driver of this trend, that would be an amazing feat of recursion 😅
@TarkabarkaHolgy Thanks for saying this out loud! Super heros have become so blunt and one dimensional these days. It's boring. Nothing human, nothing to reflect upon anymore.
@levampyre I have a whole rant locked and loaded about how this mentality from fandom crashed the Game of Thrones show.
@TarkabarkaHolgy Was it the fans fault? Or the producers for not resisting the urge of lazy story telling? Anyways, I would have loved to join JRR Martin on the route to this conclusion. It would have been epic, I'm sure. The tv series treated the source material badly and turned a once epic story into something banal and stupid.
@levampyre I think they kind of did it for fan pleasing. At least it felt like the fandom pressure came first. But it could be either/both. They were definitely bad writers.
@TarkabarkaHolgy @levampyre Dunno. I suspect the misogynistic ending with Cersei and Danaerys as two very tired spectres of female power were/are in the original ending.
@AimeeMaroux @TarkabarkaHolgy @levampyre Probably in outline, but I doubt Cersei would have been in power *long* (she is plausibly shortsightedly awful in the books, Joffrey took after her) and Danaerys would have actually had an arc to get there, instead of a week fuming at not being the fêted one in the room and then freaking out over being overshadowed by a boy. GRRM had very 90s pulp issues, but his female characters are still *people*, which is not at all how the showrunners view women.

@cwicseolfor I honestly do not remember a lot about the ending in the tv series anymore. It was so long ago that I watched and then tried to forget to soothe my disappointment.

But I suspect the outline of Denaerys becoming mad and destroying the city was outlined by Martin. And I also suspect that it would have been dramatically devastating, but plausible, believable and conclusive, had Martin told us the story of how we got there.

@AimeeMaroux @TarkabarkaHolgy

@levampyre @cwicseolfor @AimeeMaroux ok here's my opinion:
Martin was not writing fantasy, he was writing historical fiction. In terms of genre conventions. This is what kept throwing fans, who were expecting high fantasy. I grew up reading epic historical fiction (Mika Waltari, Robert Merle, Maurice Druon, etc.). For a long time, until I realized this, I didn't get why people were upset about things I loved about the books. E.g. descriptions of feasts and ACTUALLY morally grey characters.
@levampyre @cwicseolfor @AimeeMaroux When the show came out, and still followed the books for the first few seasons, the fandom was fascinating to observe. The Starks immediately could do nothing wrong in their eyes (even though they did plenty of dumb sht). Everything got explained away. Jaime's turn(s) threw people into a tizzy. I saw comments literally saying "am I supposed to like him now or not??" Same with Tyrion. Moral greyness (and complexity) did not go over well at all.
@levampyre @cwicseolfor @AimeeMaroux And I have my own theories about where Martin was headed, especially with Cersei and Dany. But again, because historical fiction conventions: what people thought were red herrings to me felt more like "well, random crap's gonna happen in history and a lot of it will lead nowhere". The showrunners tried to make everything into a clever cue, or cut it if it wasn't.

@TarkabarkaHolgy Yep, the story reminded me very much of the War of the Roses. And the multifacetted characters, the grey area and every one has a bit to like and a bit to dislike about themselves, I think, is just a realistic depiction of the richness of human characters. Real people are not black and white - perfect heros and absolute evil villains are just lazy writing and an inability to grasp and enjoy human complexity or to accept cognitive dissonance.

@cwicseolfor @AimeeMaroux

@levampyre @TarkabarkaHolgy @AimeeMaroux The resemblance to the War of the Roses isn’t coincidental, he wondered what that sort of usurpation succession in history might look like in a fantasy world.

But I love this clear demarcation of teleological fantasy vs. historical fiction in fantasy, because that explains what I enjoyed about Martin too, and why.

The showrunners were always trying to insert themselves; any love of storytelling comes distant second to love of the power to manipulate.

@cwicseolfor @levampyre @AimeeMaroux yeah a lot of times it felt like their changes were for shock factor, rather than plot and character development
@TarkabarkaHolgy @levampyre Should it ever see the light of day online please know that there’s a rabid audience for that sort of catharsis and I’m happy to ensure at least a few more of us see it beyond myself.
@TarkabarkaHolgy You can’t have much of a hero’s journey (or an audience’s interest) if they’re boringly perfect to begin with.

@BashStKid what is really baffling me is that Epic (the fandom that got people into Greek mythology again) literally begins with Odysseus deciding Astyanax can't be left to live.

But sure, yeah, CHEATING is the big sin we have to explain away...

@TarkabarkaHolgy Autres temps, autres mœurs ?
@TarkabarkaHolgy
I guess they are your example of how mythology evolves.
@taatm I don't have a problem with evolving stories. I do have a problem with people trying to claim "it has never been like that".

@TarkabarkaHolgy
I need a way of saying ‘I’m following what you are saying’ without trying to sound like I’m mansplaining to a flippin doctor. I’m trying to show I’m learning from you.

So, sorry and yes.

@taatm Oh no, I got what you were saying :) I was just continuing the train of thought :)
@TarkabarkaHolgy It's "a heroes *journey*", not " a heroes lunch break"

@TarkabarkaHolgy

He's "Wiley Odysseus". Like "Wiley Coyote"

@TarkabarkaHolgy OED says “hero” only started meaning “the good guy” in the 16th century. I wonder what caused that.

@Virginicus @TarkabarkaHolgy
Looking at Etymonline, 'hero' came to English from French 'hereo' 'a man of superhuman strength'.

By the mid 1600s it meant 'man who exhibits great bravery' and from there became 'chief male character in a play, story, etc.'

From those two, it's a short hop and a leap to 'the good guy.'

@TarkabarkaHolgy

Am reminded of Olayemi "Olay" Olurin's (Olurinatti) critique of what she coined as "virtue mirroring", in discussion of why we need problematic characters in our stories.

@TarkabarkaHolgy Odysseus was enslaved for 10 years, escaped, had only Athena as his witness and was lucky to be recognized by his own dog

@autolycos @TarkabarkaHolgy

Wishing the same could happen to a few of the current crop of “heroes” 😐

@TarkabarkaHolgy I love Odysseus but he's definitely a problematic fave 😅

However, a flawed hero is much more interesting to me than some moral saint. Would Herakles be interesting if he never did anything wrong? No, because like 90% of his adventures are atonements for the shit his choleric murder streak (and Hera) caused. Stories can be compelling even if everyone is an arsehole. They just need to be interesting arseholes. I feel like the Iliad is a case in point? 😂