Let's be clear. This is a car. Four wheels. It weighs 225 kg empty and you can add up to 200 kg of cargo. That's not an electric bike, as the manufacturer claims it is. This is a small car that occupies and blocks the bike lane. This concept shouldn't exist. Us cyclists already have to deal with bad infrastructure. I see this as a provocation, not as the positive change it pretends to be. Such vehicles belong on the road, not the bike lane.
(Gift link, needs email) https://wapo.st/4nCgi10
1/3
The intention is made clear by the manufacturer. This vehicle is specifically designed to be used on bike lanes, to avoid being stuck in car traffic. In practice this obviously means it'll block the bike lane or sidewalk while delivery is done, which can take minutes.
"Designed for Cycling infrastructure
eQuad Width 36 inches (910 mm)"
2/3
For us (older?) Europeans it is hard to see why this monstrosity is a bike when we associate this kind of vehicle with the Piaggio Ape (soon coming back es electric vehicle, the Fiat Tris) which is of similar size but is classified as car (or motorbike, depending on version and country) and of course not allowed to use the bike lane.
3/3
@jwildeboer legislation on this subject is a disaster (for everyone: lawmakers, manufacturers, the public and even advocates.)
But we all are waiting for a miracle.
As -all citizen- make use of it one way or another it should be very simple and clear.
(But law makers want exceptions because of ... (Let them explain and shiver๐)
@Frantasaur there are A limited number of categories
- bikes (with padles, without motor) with max width.
- mopeds (bike with motor with limited power & speed)
- motor bikes the rest on 2 wheels
For 3 - 4 wheels the same with max width for bike path. +wide to the street and if bike paths are to small.
@jeremiah_ @jwildeboer yes. as long as it's not tampered with.
The difference is modern bike lane standards in the Netherlands are over 1.5m wide, and increasingly we have fietstraats which are several meters wide.
The issue isn't the pedal assist delivery vehicle. The issue is poor cycle infrastructure.
@quixoticgeek @jeremiah_ @jwildeboer It feels like this thing would be fine, as long as they don't park on the bike lane...
If I were a quadbikeโข courier, I'd definitely want to stop my quadbikeโข closer to the door i'm delivering to, rather than stopping on the bike lane itself
@quixoticgeek ... unless you want to read a big fuckoff tourist map of the city, or to eat from a cone of fries roughly the size of your head, in which case the bike lane is the perfect place to stop /s
@jeremiah_ They are an easier target, and hence worth fewer points
Edit: It might be a localisation thing though
@arjankroonen
Depending on the speed limit of the street it might make sense to move heavier e-things back there based on weight...
The problem is not simple weight though its energy, so a big dude on a bakfiets can be a problem with the right gear ratios and enough of a run up.
@quixoticgeek You're answering "we should separate different types of non-car vehicles" with "just make more bike lane" and that misses the issue.
Folks worried about getting their shit rocked by a fatbike or an electric bakfiets full of amazon shit don't get their problem solved by that vehicle still being allowed in their lane, even if that lane is wider
@EndlessMason @arjankroonen @jeremiah_ @jwildeboer well unless people stop buying stuff online. We're gonna need delivery vehicles. Would you rather a small electric bike thingy, or a long wheel base transit?
I've worked as a bike courier, using bakfiets with a trailer. I've also worked as a delivery driver in a large van. I've seen both sides.
I've also seen how various types of cyclist can mix on a fietstraat.
@quixoticgeek I'm not saying that the concern is actually real, just that you're not specifically addressing it...
Personally the worst I've seen is a fatbike blast past close enough for me to say "jesus", but I've had that with an omafiets when I'm on foot too...
The only time I got into trouble, even during my first time on a bakfiets was because I got overloaded / panicked and didn't do the obviously correct thing (hesitated when i had right of way, forgot to have lights, or not just hitting the bell when somebody was in the path) - basically just a skill issue
The solution is just calming the fuck down and maintaining situational awareness and not being an asshole yourself.
@quixoticgeek I do often wonder if tram lines could be used at night to do some of the logistics that trucks / vans do now by moving a scaled up AH crates into town full of rum/cola/heineken and dropping it off at whatever store, then dragging them back out of town again the next night full of recycling/trash etc
feels like a techbro gadgetbahn idea once I get into small scale shipping containers though
@quixoticgeek
> The CarGoTram was a freight tram in Dresden, Germany that operated between 2001 and 2020. It supplied Volkswagen's "Transparent Factory" with parts for car assembly
Not loving the "was" :(
@jeremiah_ Not really. This is about there: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/53.552358/9.990770
It's a one-way road., and even big trucks can easily pass it there.
@jeremiah_ Oh, yes, slightly different type then, even more bike-like.
@mauvedeity @jeremiah_ as a long time resident of the UK I would not go as far as to claim UPS "delivers" in the UK.
They just send a text "you weren't at home" and then drops it all in some corner shop miles away from me which is their "deisgnated pick up point" :)
@jwildeboer I would disagree in theory and from practical experience. It is not legal (at least in Germany) to park a bicycle on the bike lane. There are already a few of these box van-like cargo bikes on the road in Leipzig. In contrast to the regular delivery vans, I have not yet seen such a cargo bike blocking the bike lane (but probably they will some day, like the regular vans). At the end of the day, these vehicles don't really take up any more traffic space than the traditional postal service cargo bikes. If they partially replace delivery vans, I can only see improvements.
In my view, the main problem is that there is a lack of loading zones everywhere and couriers and suppliers are therefore breaking the traffic rules.
a motoring helmet *is* a requirement for those driving fast on track days (even in their own otherwise normal road going cars)
Interestingly I've yet not seen this vehicle on the streets of the UK, even if its made here (and is legal ) and I expect it would struggle with many actual bike lanes which have restrictions in them to keep small motorcycles out (and are even awkward to negotiate on a normal e-bike with two panniers)
However there are already a lot of small e-scooters and other things that are *not* approved (they should be registered like mopeds but won't pass type approval) being ridden illegally in Britain (especially by food delivery riders) and the Police are fighting a constant cat and mouse game trying to stop them..
@auxonic @jwildeboer yeah that part is bizarre. "we're making our workers pedal instead of including an extra $100 worth of battery because...?"
(its so it can be a class-III ebike, isnt it...)
Yes, I totaly agree, they should use the car-lanes not the bike-lanes.
Let's be clear. This is a car. Four wheels. It weighs 225 kg empty and you can add up to 200 kg of cargo. That's not an electric bike, as the manufacturer claims it is. This is a small car that occupies and blocks the bike lane. This concept shouldn't exist. Us cyclists already have to deal with bad infrastructure. I see this as a provocation, not as the positive change it pretends to be. Such vehicles belong on the road, not the bike lane.
(Gift link, needs email) https://wapo.st/4nCgi10
1/3
The intention is made clear by the manufacturer. This vehicle is specifically designed to be used on bike lanes, to avoid being stuck in car traffic. In practice this obviously means it'll block the bike lane or sidewalk while delivery is done, which can take minutes.
"Designed for Cycling infrastructure
eQuad Width 36 inches (910 mm)"
2/3
For us (older?) Europeans it is hard to see why this monstrosity is a bike when we associate this kind of vehicle with the Piaggio Ape (soon coming back es electric vehicle, the Fiat Tris) which is of similar size but is classified as car (or motorbike, depending on version and country) and of course not allowed to use the bike lane.
3/3
@jwildeboer legislation on this subject is a disaster (for everyone: lawmakers, manufacturers, the public and even advocates.)
But we all are waiting for a miracle.
As -all citizen- make use of it one way or another it should be very simple and clear.
(But law makers want exceptions because of ... (Let them explain and shiver๐)
@Frantasaur there are A limited number of categories
- bikes (with padles, without motor) with max width.
- mopeds (bike with motor with limited power & speed)
- motor bikes the rest on 2 wheels
For 3 - 4 wheels the same with max width for bike path. +wide to the street and if bike paths are to small.
@jeremiah_ @jwildeboer yes. as long as it's not tampered with.
The difference is modern bike lane standards in the Netherlands are over 1.5m wide, and increasingly we have fietstraats which are several meters wide.
The issue isn't the pedal assist delivery vehicle. The issue is poor cycle infrastructure.
@quixoticgeek @jeremiah_ @jwildeboer It feels like this thing would be fine, as long as they don't park on the bike lane...
If I were a quadbikeโข courier, I'd definitely want to stop my quadbikeโข closer to the door i'm delivering to, rather than stopping on the bike lane itself
@quixoticgeek ... unless you want to read a big fuckoff tourist map of the city, or to eat from a cone of fries roughly the size of your head, in which case the bike lane is the perfect place to stop /s
@jeremiah_ They are an easier target, and hence worth fewer points
Edit: It might be a localisation thing though
@arjankroonen
Depending on the speed limit of the street it might make sense to move heavier e-things back there based on weight...
The problem is not simple weight though its energy, so a big dude on a bakfiets can be a problem with the right gear ratios and enough of a run up.
@quixoticgeek You're answering "we should separate different types of non-car vehicles" with "just make more bike lane" and that misses the issue.
Folks worried about getting their shit rocked by a fatbike or an electric bakfiets full of amazon shit don't get their problem solved by that vehicle still being allowed in their lane, even if that lane is wider
@EndlessMason @arjankroonen @jeremiah_ @jwildeboer well unless people stop buying stuff online. We're gonna need delivery vehicles. Would you rather a small electric bike thingy, or a long wheel base transit?
I've worked as a bike courier, using bakfiets with a trailer. I've also worked as a delivery driver in a large van. I've seen both sides.
I've also seen how various types of cyclist can mix on a fietstraat.
@quixoticgeek I'm not saying that the concern is actually real, just that you're not specifically addressing it...
Personally the worst I've seen is a fatbike blast past close enough for me to say "jesus", but I've had that with an omafiets when I'm on foot too...
The only time I got into trouble, even during my first time on a bakfiets was because I got overloaded / panicked and didn't do the obviously correct thing (hesitated when i had right of way, forgot to have lights, or not just hitting the bell when somebody was in the path) - basically just a skill issue
The solution is just calming the fuck down and maintaining situational awareness and not being an asshole yourself.
@quixoticgeek I do often wonder if tram lines could be used at night to do some of the logistics that trucks / vans do now by moving a scaled up AH crates into town full of rum/cola/heineken and dropping it off at whatever store, then dragging them back out of town again the next night full of recycling/trash etc
feels like a techbro gadgetbahn idea once I get into small scale shipping containers though
@quixoticgeek
> The CarGoTram was a freight tram in Dresden, Germany that operated between 2001 and 2020. It supplied Volkswagen's "Transparent Factory" with parts for car assembly
Not loving the "was" :(
@jeremiah_ Not really. This is about there: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/53.552358/9.990770
It's a one-way road., and even big trucks can easily pass it there.
@jeremiah_ Oh, yes, slightly different type then, even more bike-like.
@mauvedeity @jeremiah_ as a long time resident of the UK I would not go as far as to claim UPS "delivers" in the UK.
They just send a text "you weren't at home" and then drops it all in some corner shop miles away from me which is their "deisgnated pick up point" :)
@jwildeboer I would disagree in theory and from practical experience. It is not legal (at least in Germany) to park a bicycle on the bike lane. There are already a few of these box van-like cargo bikes on the road in Leipzig. In contrast to the regular delivery vans, I have not yet seen such a cargo bike blocking the bike lane (but probably they will some day, like the regular vans). At the end of the day, these vehicles don't really take up any more traffic space than the traditional postal service cargo bikes. If they partially replace delivery vans, I can only see improvements.
In my view, the main problem is that there is a lack of loading zones everywhere and couriers and suppliers are therefore breaking the traffic rules.
a motoring helmet *is* a requirement for those driving fast on track days (even in their own otherwise normal road going cars)
Interestingly I've yet not seen this vehicle on the streets of the UK, even if its made here (and is legal ) and I expect it would struggle with many actual bike lanes which have restrictions in them to keep small motorcycles out (and are even awkward to negotiate on a normal e-bike with two panniers)
However there are already a lot of small e-scooters and other things that are *not* approved (they should be registered like mopeds but won't pass type approval) being ridden illegally in Britain (especially by food delivery riders) and the Police are fighting a constant cat and mouse game trying to stop them..
@auxonic @jwildeboer yeah that part is bizarre. "we're making our workers pedal instead of including an extra $100 worth of battery because...?"
(its so it can be a class-III ebike, isnt it...)
Yes, I totaly agree, they should use the car-lanes not the bike-lanes.
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