Mastodawn

@strlcat @davidgerard not to be pedantic but is it really monopolization when the main developers of X11 have since move on to another project deliberately to replace the old?

Like to my understanding, it isn’t about “competition” in this case, but about moving standards from one system to another and making that work happen. Ie. we use computers in 2025, not 1985, and the way graphics for computers work has changed significantly from then til now, and part of the reason Wayland exists is to be able to modernize graphics on anything that uses it. So it’s a shift in standards vs Competition. Especially when it’s all X11 devs who moved on to Wayland and have generally stopped putting much work into X11 as is.

(And that isn’t even touching on most of the code added to base X11 from the founder of XLibre being reverted out due to breaking changes and weird modifications of licenses retroactively as people started looking over the commits and noticing some issues..)

Idk, I think a lot of the arguing around this issue is stemming from a handful of malignant actors that are deliberately throwing chaff into the wind and getting into everyone’s hair about it while fundamentally misunderstanding what is going on and why we have Wayland to begin with. Arguably deliberately misunderstanding for the sake of arguing and causing drama.

Are there technical issues with Wayland? Yeah! But there’s also a fuckload of technical issues with X11 as well, and the decision was made to focus on Wayland and modernizing graphics on Linux rather than maintaining something who’s primary promise of network transparency stopped being true decades ago.

David Chisnall (*Now with 50% more sarcasm!*)Jun 21, 2025

@dvandal @strlcat @davidgerard

Wayland and systemd are both symptoms of the same behaviour, as was PulseAudio:

Observe that an existing system has flaws.
Don't engage with users to identify use cases.
Throw up some half-finished code (with incomplete or nonexistent backwards compatibility) that solves some of the problems of the old system but doesn't address all of its use cases and introduces more problems for other people.
Declare that the old thing is deprecated and everyone needs to move to the new thing.
Create a load of work in the rest of the ecosystem that other people have to do.
Silence all criticism by pointing out that the old thing was imperfect.

And that's the kind of thing that you can only get away with if you're able to act as a monopoly, by employing maintainers at key points across the ecosystem.

The biggest problem with Microsoft was not that their monopoly allowed them to be evil, it was that it allowed them to be stupid. A lot of things in the MS ecosystem are actually bad for Microsoft, but they're pushed out because no one inside MS cares enough to do the right thing and no one outside is able to fix the problems. I, personally, don't want the F/OSS OS ecosystem to end up like that.

Daniel V.Jun 21, 2025

@david_chisnall @strlcat @davidgerard

If all the maintainers for Old Thing have moved over to working on New Thing, wouldn't it be incredibly irresponsible of them to not declare Old Thing as deprecated? Is that not the literal definition of Deprecation?

X11 as a fallback option has been supported for well over a decade at this point. The goal being: Push people to the new standard so the new *standard* can be developed more fully and flushed out and fix the majority of the gaps.

*Standards take time to change, with all the presumed growing pains in between*. It's not easy to shift standards, but when the devs have flat out *moved on*, it's not about a competition between the standards. It's that people are moving on to a new Standard to work on.

We did have competing modern display protocols there for a bit. Do you remember Mir? Didn't Mir just flat out lose out in terms of gaining market share and so forth to Wayland?

Suffice to say, framing a standard shift as Monopolization is *really really weird* and fundamentally is at odds at the reality of what the ongoing process actually is. The developers *moved on.* Nobody stood up to take their place and continue developing X11 until recently, and even then the first thing that project did was break from the Standard (lol)

I understand the annoyances and the pain of this process: I've been daily driving Fedora Desktop since Fedora 11. But I also understood, especially in the early days, that Wayland was *heavily* under development and to expect bugs, and I went into it knowing full well that I could revert to X11 Fallback as necessary (which I used a ton in the early days!). We're well into a decade past that at this point and I literally have more issues in X11 than I do with Wayland. It's been like that for about 3 years now, personally.

But again: Calling it a Monopoly when the core maintainers just Moved On is, frankly, weird.

David Chisnall (*Now with 50% more sarcasm!*)Jun 21, 2025

@dvandal @strlcat @davidgerard

I started writing a long reply, but then I got to the point where you literally did the thing I said in my sixth bullet point, and realised that there's absolutely no point in trying to have a discussion.

Daniel V.Jun 21, 2025

@david_chisnall @strlcat @davidgerard I wanna be super clear on this: I did not mean to come across as putting down the entirety of what you're saying.

I don't understand the monopolistic framing of the argument is the core of what I meant to get at. I didn't discuss X11 nor it's flaws at any extent, nor did I put down the legitimate issues people have had with it. Again: VERY legitimate issues! Nvidea with Wayland has been, as far as I know, effectively impossible until very recently, and even that is still in it's early stages of implementation.

I just don't understand the framing of it as a monopolistic move on the part of the developers when they've more or less abandoned the original project and decided collectively to move on to establishing a new standard.

I don't mean to come across as disrespectful or argumentative, I just don't understand the core framing device that it's a monopolistic move.

I absolutely agree that the processes of adoption could have been much cleaner and handled a lot better. Especially by the Gnome team. I super agree with you on that point.

But the monopolistic angle of it isn't something I'm understanding. It feels like a weird approach to angle and frame the argument that demands a double burden be placed on the maintainers. That very specifically is the part that I intended to get at, while sharing my understanding that the issue is one of Standards changing, not some type of hostile take-over.

Again: I don't meant to be dismissing you outright or to come across as rude. You've developed your opinion for a reason and I'd love to understand it better. But right now it's not making a lot of sense to me and I would very much appreciate more insight into your thoughts on it.

David Gerard Jun 22, 2025

@david_chisnall @dvandal @strlcat This response is pretty clearly just dodging the actual point of the reply.

Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.Jun 21, 2025

@dvandal @david_chisnall @strlcat @[email protected] Yeah, I agree no maintainer should be forced to work on xorg, alsa, or sysvinit, no matter how many users it has. And, yes, when the amount of maintenance effort drops it is good to let users and downstream know -- based on some threshold relative of historical effort available or new work needed coming in.

I say this as someone that still uses Xorg.

I do think monopoly / monsopony can definitely be issues, but the solution to that is having enough producers / consumers so that coopetition is the default, not shaming maintainers.

I think this means improving the experience of being a maintainer, and while compensation is part of that, being given a bit more grace by the community when you choose not to do something (like maintain sysvinit support) is important, too.

mirabilos Jun 21, 2025

@strlcat @david_chisnall @BoydStephenSmithJr @dvandal the problem with that is not that the maintainers don’t want to be forced to support sysvinit. The problem is that they actively work against those people who do, even when presented with working patches and an offer of supporting the sysvinit-using users of their package… from a fellow team member, even.

Basically telling users to use the new systemd/fdo/gnome/wayland/pa/pw/whatever thing or get lost and actively working against the mere possibility of supporting it.

Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.Jun 21, 2025

@mirabilos @strlcat @david_chisnall @dvandal While I've heard of that happening, I don't see why a "soft" fork is not a suitable solution. Just publish a branch with the "sysvinit support" patches, and kick off the release tarball/build process whenever.

Debian maintains patches on top of upstream sometimes for many, many years. I maintained my own small patches against the kernel to enable a feature that "wasn't ready" but I needed for my hardware for nearly 2 years.

I fully understand a maintainer choosing to reject a patch *for any reason* and I support their rights to do so. If that becomes "censorship", then treat it as "damage and route around" the maintainer. (This does not require attacks, personal or otherwise against said maintainer.)

There are issues around namespace claims, but any resolutions to those issues will be specific to how the namespace is organized (hopefully [but rarely] democratically).

mirabilos Jun 21, 2025

@BoydStephenSmithJr @dvandal @strlcat @david_chisnall I was speaking of Debian packages.

Incidentally I did soft-fork the tomcat9 package, as ${dayjob[-1]} had need, and it ended up being a hard fork. Still available in my own APT repo, still downloaded by several users even… some even contacted me to say thanks.

Only sad I couldn’t bring the improvement into Debian proper as the primary maintainer veto’d it… for use of adduser of all things… back when sysvinit support was still mandatory (and the package therefore rc-buggy).

Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.Jun 21, 2025

@mirabilos @dvandal @strlcat @david_chisnall Never had the pleasure of being a Debian Maintainer myself, but I thought the technical committee was there to "encourage" maintainers to follow approved policy and accept patches for such rc-buggy things.

I do know such things rarely work out as well as they are designed to or even appear to from the outside.

I do know Debian is in a bit of a pickle these days because there are several upstreams that have significantly more "person-hours" available and are very difficult to patch. So, in order to make those package available at all ... "compromises" are made. :(

Thank you for maintaining an APT repo with your patched version! Even if I don't use it, it serve to illustrate the power of "bazaar"-style development.

mirabilos Jun 21, 2025

@BoydStephenSmithJr @strlcat @david_chisnall @dvandal I thought so, too, but evidently nobody in power had any tuits left to care about nōn-systemd at that point after years of debate.

Meanwhile the "modernists" took that power vacuum and started removing cronjobs from core packages such as mdadm in favour of systemd timers (even many systemd people use cron instead). The GR only gave the mandate for init scripts, not cronjobs, but nobody cared. And maintainers who unilaterally remove init scripts don’t even coordinate with the orphan-sysvinit-scripts package maintainers to have a handover that doesn’t break existing users.

(Meanwhile o-s-s shipped a buggy tomcat9 init script that could never have worked because all versions of tomcat9 actually in Debian for which the package could have come into effect were uninstallable due to a hard Depends on systemd for its adduser thing, so all it ever did was to break mine, and it took months to get it removed.)

Communication. So important.

wyatt Jun 21, 2025

@mirabilos @BoydStephenSmithJr @strlcat @david_chisnall @dvandal i myself have many, many debian packages that i `apt-get source` (or use their git repo) and then edit the debian rules/control files and `dpkg-buildpackage -uc -us -b` every time i update to dodge systemd

Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.Jun 21, 2025

@wyatt @david_chisnall @dvandal @strlcat @mirabilos Wasn't there there a Devuan (or smth) that was supposed to be Debian minus systemd? Did it die?

(Personally, I prefer systemd over sysvinit, so I didn't try it.)

mirabilos Jun 21, 2025

@david_chisnall @dvandal @BoydStephenSmithJr @strlcat @wyatt it attracted the same sort of people X"Libre" did, so it’s not an option.

I also doubt their technical and manpower to keep anything working that is actively desupported in Debian.

I’d rather go with the security-supported option.

fraggle Jun 22, 2025

@BoydStephenSmithJr @wyatt @david_chisnall @dvandal @strlcat @mirabilos scroll up. all the way up to the top of the thread

mirabilos Jun 22, 2025

@wyatt @BoydStephenSmithJr @david_chisnall @dvandal @strlcat weird, I have very few… mostly a package that just Provides: logind aptly called logind-considered-harmful (after having a look at elogind, which changes the system state in unpredictable ways, like lid closing crashes the system as it tries to suspend) and don’t use GNOME, so…

… ah, yes, and prevent-systemd-{installed,running,completely} install apt pinning to enforce it stays off.

All available from the wtf extrepo thanks to @wouter

JdeBP Jun 22, 2025

@BoydStephenSmithJr @dvandal @david_chisnall @strlcat

This reasoning is based upon a fallacious dichotomy. In the real history, Upstart existed and had a strong competing maintainership, to the level that the #Debian TC itself was nearly split down the middle on #RedHat/#Canonical lines, and the choice was *never* between van Smoorenburg init+rc and systemd.

It was between #Upstart and #systemd, the latter indeed being a reaction to the former, with #OpenRC as a late entrant.

David Gerard Jun 22, 2025

@BoydStephenSmithJr @dvandal @david_chisnall @strlcat yeah, the actual answer to continued X11 development is for someone to pay for X11 developers

if nobody is doing that, then that's your problem

if all you have is obnoxious nazis who can't code, your project is somewhere past dead

David Chisnall (*Now with 50% more sarcasm!*)Jun 22, 2025

@davidgerard @BoydStephenSmithJr @dvandal @strlcat

You’re buying into the false dichotomy that the people pushing these things love. The solution space is not old thing with problems vs new thing with overlapping set of problems. Things like Arcan exist and actually solve the problems with X11. It even had a Wayland bridge that let you run Wayland things (though Wayland is such a mess of incompatible extensions because the core protocol didn’t solve most of the problems end users actually have that they gave up trying to support it) which even handles graceful reconnect if the display server dies, and has an X11 compatibility interface (still maintained) that even lets unmodified X11 WMs manage windows with a security model on top. Pretending that the choice is X11 or Wayland is exactly how people push Wayland. Something must be done, this is something, we must do it.

mirabilos Jun 21, 2025

@david_chisnall @davidgerard @strlcat @dvandal no.

gunstick Jun 22, 2025

@dvandal @david_chisnall @strlcat @davidgerard
Wayland has no screensavers. Every OS in the world has that. Just not wayland. Because idiots.

HTTP 1.1/418 Old Teapot Typewriter Font Jun 21, 2025

@david_chisnall @dvandal @strlcat @davidgerard
Oh god yeah. In particular, at msft, my experience was not so much nobody cared but that product groups could push back on other departments ("we're a profit center so fuck you, cost center!") when they got complaints from folks testing. Couple that with the fact that your compensation (esp in the form of stock/stock options) is heavily dependent on being seen to ship shiny new cool stuff. Fixing old stuff is unglamorous and typically doesn't get you the high review scores.

@david_chisnall @dvandal @strlcat @davidgerard IMHO they are both wastly superior and user friendly, but it takes time to fill all gaps

mirabilos Jun 21, 2025

@david_chisnall @strlcat @dvandal @davidgerard this! A gazillion times this! 😻

mirabilos Jun 21, 2025

@dvandal @strlcat @davidgerard @david_chisnall oh, this is about Wayland initially (only read the OP (edit: wasn’t the OP but the top of the subthread I could see) now).

Wayland may be nice for some, but several (multiple, plural) ways in which I use computers are inimical to Wayland (i.e. Wayland was designed specifically to make these uses impossible), so I’ll rather not.

(But, since I recently read about a Wayland-only UI toolkit for Linux: is there a way to run single Wayland applications under XFree86/X.org including xrdp/xorgxrdp, with normal X11 WMs and all?)

Daniel V.Jun 21, 2025

@mirabilos @david_chisnall @davidgerard @strlcat (I think there was something ages and ages back for doing initial testing with Wayland apps inside of X11. I have no idea if it’s still supported but I remember it basically opening a Wayland “window” that your app would run inside of. That was so super long ago I don’t remember the name of it. I remember finding it and fiddling with it when Weston was the test bed for most Wayland stuff)

LR Jun 21, 2025

@david_chisnall @dvandal @strlcat @davidgerard mimimi

Simon Richter Jun 21, 2025

@david_chisnall @dvandal @strlcat @[email protected] Wayland at least makes some sense: modern hardware now has process separation, and programs can operate in isolation without context switches until it's time to send the output to the display.

The same can be done in X11, as an extension, so that isn't even too much of a step -- it mostly switches the default to "hardware assisted separation".

That's definitely useful, what is wrong though is fixing more than one problem at the same time: they *also* want to start from a clean slate with the other protocols.

My feeling is that the people doing the GPU work and the people doing the protocol gatekeeping are different groups, so this could be solvable, it's just a lot of tedious, thankless work that has already been done for X11 by some greybeards who understand how software works.

Steven R. Baker Jun 22, 2025

@david_chisnall @dvandal @strlcat @davidgerard this is also how we got git. :(

slash Jun 22, 2025

@david_chisnall @dvandal @[email protected] @davidgerard

All of that code is produced by Freedesktop[.]org, and it's the sole reason my GNU/Linux machines now crash. I switched to *BSD.

Consider Pulse Audio. It can only be used by _one_ user. And that user *must* be logged in. Thanks for turning my multiuser/multiprogramming OS back into DOS.

Udisks2 ignores /etc/fstab.

Systemd is completely inappropriate for use on servers. And it's impossible to debug boot failures.

Simon Ser Jun 22, 2025

@david_chisnall @dvandal @strlcat @[email protected] I have poured most hours of my last 10 years of life into listening to users and pushing things forward on Wayland even if I personally wouldn't need the feature. I really saddens me that someone would think that Wayland developers don't care.

We do care, but we only have a finite amount of time in our volunteer life. Yes, we don't copy-paste solutions from X11: we try to fully understand the problem space and do better. This does mean that coming to us with technical solutions rather than use-cases tends to be met with "please, explain why you need to do this?".

I don't really know what you mean when you say that we silence criticism. I've read enough in the past years to guarantee that it's not silenced. I appreciate constructive criticism better than rants, rants tend to demoralize me.

I am also saddened about the conspiracy that big corp deprecates X11 against the community's will. There is no single company with a monopoly here, please take a bit of time to look at Wayland developers' employers. Personally, I'm ex-SourceHut and now just a volunteer (my day job is unrelated: SNCF Réseau).

I've never said that X11 was deprecated, and I always tell people to use whatever works best for them. The only reason why X11 has less activity nowadays is because X11 lacks volunteers. (We severely lack volunteers on the Wayland side too.)

People, distros, communities move away from X11 if/when they collectively decide that they should. Nobody's pulling the strings here.

DrYak Jun 22, 2025

@emersion and thanks for your work on Wayland.

Clari Jun 22, 2025

@emersion @david_chisnall @dvandal @[email protected] it isn't the devs that we should be taking issue with, it's the corporations telling us how to use Linux that is at issue. It happened before with systemd and SELinux, so forgive us for being a little on edge.

☃️karolherbst☃️Jun 22, 2025

@ClariNerd @emersion @david_chisnall @dvandal @strlcat do yourself a favor and don't believe in baseless conspiracy theories.

You are free to ask the vast amount of distribution why they switched and I'm sure you won't get a "because RH said so" ever.

People working at RH are even allowed to make upstream decisions against the company's own interest... it's even publicly documented.

There is nobody pulling the strings, seriously.

Cameron Bosch Jun 22, 2025

Don't get me wrong, Wayland isn't perfect, and I disagree with the Red Hat / IBM controlling Linux "theory", but there needs to be more protocols adopted in the full spec. Except one certain project has been causing... Issues with that. And its been hurting downstream projects and until very recently, the accessibility push.

We have a legitimate shot at gaining our user base, and we keep throwing it away with all of this infighting among the "right" way to do protocols, when they need 2be there

Neal Gompa (ニール・ゴンパ)

@cameron_bosch Most of us working in the Wayland space have already figured out how to deal with that anyway. That's why we've been making tremendous progress the past few years.

I also lived through the 90s of pre-standardized window managers on X11. We're experiencing exactly the same kind of pain now, and eventually everything gets reconciled.

Cameron Bosch Jun 22, 2025

@neal I wish I could say that I loved the days of TWM, FVWM, WindowMaker etc. Instead, I have to say I wasn't even there...

Glad to see Wayland protocol development happening much faster im the past few years though!

Jonathan Dowland Jun 22, 2025

@cameron_bosch @neal the bizarre, idiosyncratic and rich variety of WMs (and other stuff) was what hooked me on Linux, back in the 90s

Neal Gompa (ニール・ゴンパ)

@jmtd @cameron_bosch And you get the same flavor of crazy in Wayland today if you wish to look. It's pretty neat. And people are even inventing new workflows on Wayland because it's a new landscape to play with.

Cameron Bosch Jun 22, 2025

@neal Yeah, @YaLTeR compositor Niri looks really cool! I actually think it's a really cool tiling Wayland compositor that solves many of the issues I had with tiling WMs and Wayland compositors!

Neal Gompa (ニール・ゴンパ)

@cameron_bosch I still have nostalgia for fvwm, but that doesn't mean I want to run it in 2025. 😃

Cameron Bosch Jun 22, 2025

@neal At least we have labwc and Wayfire (the latter for former Compiz users)!

Raven667 Jun 23, 2025

@cameron_bosch think this is part of a category error when thinking about Linux desktops. People want free and independent non-corporate FOSS projects but then also want there to be some sort of top-down corporate control where there is no infighting and independence of projects, all effort is pointed toward the goal of *conquering* the desktop from Apple and Microsoft, and glorious humans that we are we keep both diametrically opposed beliefs in our head, strongly, at the same time.

ity [unit X-69] - VIOLENT FUCK Jun 22, 2025

@karolherbst @ClariNerd @emersion @david_chisnall @dvandal @strlcat
I like systemd
And SELinux
And Wayland
I like that they exist. I don't like the implementation (in fact I abhor the way Wayland and SELinux are implemented)
So I am clearly a RedHat agent, right
got rejected when she applied to RedHat
I wish!

☃️karolherbst☃️Jun 22, 2025

@ity @ClariNerd @emersion @david_chisnall @dvandal @strlcat well.. at least "redhat", more like Wim working at Red Hat, wrote a pulseaudio replacement and that's going great.

Maybe if people start reimplementing systemd or SELinux but in better that could gain traction. But I think pulseaudio was a simple "victim" there 🙃

ity [unit X-69] - VIOLENT FUCK Jun 22, 2025

@karolherbst @ClariNerd @emersion @david_chisnall @dvandal @strlcat I wanted to try. Essentially flatpak in the kernel, object capabilities, to get another option for security...

ity [unit X-69] - VIOLENT FUCK Jun 22, 2025

@karolherbst @ClariNerd @emersion @david_chisnall @dvandal @strlcat replacing dbus, and being stricter than SELinux by default, by essentially controlling the comms between apps as the primary thing. More closer to Android.

But idk if fd.o would like stuff to turn fd.o Linux into Android, lmao.

ity [unit X-69] - VIOLENT FUCK Jun 22, 2025

@karolherbst @ClariNerd @emersion @david_chisnall @dvandal @strlcat replacing dbus with binder

Neal Gompa (ニール・ゴンパ)

@ity @karolherbst @ClariNerd @emersion @david_chisnall @dvandal @strlcat Whenever people tell me they hate dbus, I always say "then let's adopt Binder". It's somewhat half-serious, but I do think that a high quality kernel-based IPC that is battle-tested is worth considering for standard Linux too.

☃️karolherbst☃️Jun 22, 2025

@ity @ClariNerd @emersion @david_chisnall @dvandal @strlcat Many tried to replace dbus, at least we have dbus-broker now which is kinda an improvement :)

But yeah.. maybe we need another IPC that solves some critical issues.

Permission control is kinda something we do through portals or inside wayland compositors.

There is some accessibility concerns tho, because some people just want to allow everything every time, and that's kinda something userspace needs to decide on anyway.

ity [unit X-69] - VIOLENT FUCK Jun 22, 2025

@karolherbst @ClariNerd @emersion @david_chisnall @dvandal @strlcat I feel like portals do not adequately solve the issue at hand, and Wayland is still inequipped for it.
We'd need something like polkit, but more flexible and user manageable...
Binder is upstream, though.
Though this isn't a convo to have in a fedi thread while I am tired, lol.

☃️karolherbst☃️Jun 22, 2025

@ity @ClariNerd @emersion @david_chisnall @dvandal @strlcat Heh fair, I don't really have any opinions on portals myself anyway 🙃

Knut 🏳️‍🌈 🇳🇴🧸Jun 22, 2025

@karolherbst @ClariNerd @emersion @david_chisnall @dvandal @strlcat I've been in the FOSS world a good 25+ years, And nobody controls Linux as an ecosystem. Not even RedHat back when it was the only way to get Linux on CD. Closest is Torvalds, but he screams bloody MURDER any time a corporation tells him what to do...and then he goes to another one willing to pay him more for the luxury of saying he's staff. He's done that 3 or 4 times.

☃️karolherbst☃️Jun 22, 2025

@praetor @ClariNerd @emersion @david_chisnall @dvandal @strlcat

Yeah, but I think the issue is, that most people don't know how it is working for Red Hat.

The years I've been working there, nobody ever told me what I should or shouldn't do as an upstream maintainer and I have full power to decide whatever I want upstream without anybody from RH interfering.

Soo... yeah... it's a shame that a company providing such a job has that kind of reputation.

Knut 🏳️‍🌈 🇳🇴🧸Jun 22, 2025

@karolherbst @ClariNerd @emersion @david_chisnall @dvandal @strlcat i didn't realize they have that reputation. All their devs work-semi independently. And light on the semi and heavy on the independent. Most redhat employees get paid for maintaining their own projects redhat uses for its products. I thought that was widely known. Its always been like that.

☃️karolherbst☃️Jun 22, 2025

@praetor @ClariNerd @emersion @david_chisnall @dvandal @strlcat Yeah dunno. Maybe it's just a "vocal minority" situation here.

Knut 🏳️‍🌈 🇳🇴🧸Jun 22, 2025

@karolherbst @ClariNerd @emersion @david_chisnall @dvandal @strlcat vocal minority who ain't been in the scene long....

Haelwenn /элвэн/

@ClariNerd @emersion @david_chisnall @dvandal @strlcat Which smells like you shouldn't be using random corporate distros.
In fact SELinux is pretty much non-existant outside of RHEL and derived/compatible, so pretty easy to ignore.

Ichthyx Jun 22, 2025

@emersion @david_chisnall @dvandal @strlcat wayland developers shouldn't have to justify themselves to lunatics, the freedom of open source tolerates lunatics, so let them play with their conspiracy thing. If some people like mold-infested old house (X11) then who care.

Wolf480pl Jun 22, 2025

@emersion @david_chisnall @dvandal @strlcat

Thank you for your work!

I've been using sway for 7 years, seen it gain features, seen you and other sway/wlroots devs push in wayland-protocols for many features that people missed from X11, and I appreciate all of your effort.

And I also use Xorg on some of my computers, and I agree people should use whatever works for them.

But then I saw 1 or 2 people who seem to say they want to see Xorg dead, and I don't understand why they'd want that...