George Takei 
π³οΈβπππ½Apparently statesβ rights stop the moment women board a plane with autonomy in their carry-on.
I see Dud people!@georgetakei I'm not sure of the point they're trying to make.
Alex@BackFromTheDud @georgetakei if you go to another state for an abortion, you can't be prosecuted.
Louis Couture 
π³οΈβπ@BackFromTheDud @georgetakei the point is you can't make law apply to outside of your territory
Gary Houston@louisrcouture @BackFromTheDud @georgetakei I don't know what the US Constitution says specifically. But internationally, a government can make any laws it likes, including criminalising things that take place outside their territory (sex tourism is a popular one.) The real issue is whether they can get hold of the person to prosecute them, typically when they return voluntarily, or if they get extradited or deported.
WellsiteGeo@louisrcouture @BackFromTheDud @georgetakei
So the Govt of the USA can't tax the earnings of Americans working outside the USA?
That'll please a lot of the oil industry workers I've worked with.
Andreas K@louisrcouture
Now that's not the American way.
The world literally loves the USA for its exterritorial applying laws and enforcement.
cqd_sosOkay. What if my answer isn't NO, but YES?
I mean, that's what much of the discussion was about, wasn't it. What states can impose or not.
So when a state says you can't gamble here or anywhere else, and the Supreme Court is fine with that, then that's what it is. Live with it.
Jay@cqd_sos @georgetakei Now apply that to civil rights and bodily autonomy.
If your home state of State A declares surgery illegal, should you be prosecuted for going to State B to have an emergency appendectomy?
You only got half of the shit show.
If your home state declares procedure A illegal, and says you can't have it anywhere else, you may have it performed in some other state, but as soon as you return home you're liable for prosecution.
Welcome to the United States of America.
@cqd_sos
Ah, but that opens the question.
What about people that have not lived in state A and have the procedure.
Eg residents of state B?
Considering that you still have the free movement around the USA this all does not make sense.
Equality before the law basically requires that all citizens that had the procedure and that travel to state A are prosecuted.
Or that people from state A are treated like they were moving to state B @WhiteCatTamer @georgetakei
and thus not under the rules of state A.
What are they do if the women literally get a package with a rented flat, a cost first to the DMV to get a new licence (or one of the fangled id cards for voting that seem to exist in some places), and then goes to the clinic on the next day as a resident of state B.
@WhiteCatTamer @georgetakei @cqd_sos
@yacc143 @WhiteCatTamer @georgetakei
Tha's not how it works. In particular, a state law doesn't need to make sense across states.
Theoretically, much like the nation-states in the EU, each state individually can pass any kind of law it wants, as egregious or illogical as it may be, and apply it to anyone crossing the state border. There's one requirement such a law has to fulfill though, it has to conform to the US constitution.
And how is that requirement being enforced?
@yacc143 @WhiteCatTamer @georgetakei
By challenging it, in the Supreme Court, which then validates or invalidates the law. That's how it works, it's an iterative process, not based on an overall design.
In Europe, there's also an EU law, and the states participating in the EU have to conform to that. Where the enforcement process is quite similar to the US.
Which, by the way, was a major reason why the UK left the EU. Because it felt the EU interfered too much in its domestic affairs.
@cqd_sos @WhiteCatTamer @georgetakei It's a little bit more complicated.
SCOTUS (similar to the ECJ) does not have their own army to enforce their verdicts.
In practice (and that exists in all federal systems, even relatively small countries with a "strong" federal government) you'll find that not all levels always enforce the law correctly. It does not have to be always a Nullification Crisis, but e.g. look how Marijuana regulations are enforced today in the USA. The feds literally
do not try to enforce their "war on drugs" (heard the Weirdo-in-Chief, he wants the death penalty for drug charges, but not for the drug kingpins he pardons I guess). You have it here in Austria, where Northern-Slovenia (aka Carinthia) refused for decades to put dual-language city signs. Till somebody forced the question, via a speeding ticket. (No VALID city sign, no city speed limit, oops). And in the USA it
Anyway, so making sure that the laws are correctly applied is messy.
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/303858316.pdf
Just because SCOTUS rules, does not mean it cannot be ignored, right?
https://scholarship.law.nd.edu/ndlr/vol97/iss2/6/
And the lawyers are totally fine with it.
The ECJ OTOH has a more complicated situation, Americans might not realize, it does not rule on most cases directly, it's more of an expert hotline for EU law for MS courts, that these have to ask for interpretations of any EU law/regulation that might be unclear in their specific case before their court.
Well, any law is subject to interpretation, like all language is. That's what the Supreme Court is for, as far as the constitution is concerned.
And of course doesn't it enforce it in an executive sense. It's part of the judiciary, so all it does is make rulings. The enforcement lies in the assumption that the states comply with the contract they have, with the Union.
When that isn't the case, what you end up with is a constitutional crisis at best or a civil war at worst.
Bernie Pridefully Does It@yacc143 There's some Appropriations Clause weirdness in the marijuana case because they made it illegal for the Federal government to enforce Federal marijuana laws in states that have marijuana legalization regimes that meet certain standards.
holothuroid@cqd_sos @georgetakei
You disregard the modern notion of state as codified in the Montevideo protocol. Roughly speaking a state is a political entity that governs a region inhabited by people.
That is different from early medieval or Roman notions, for example, that are more a people with their own laws that happens to live somewhere.
So please don't be bothered when someone calls you medieval.
Honestly, nobody did, up to this point. In case somebody does, though, I'm now going to be prepared, thanks to your valuable contribution.
Chris (Master of Potate) π₯@georgetakei Is there a big hurdle to moving to another state? I don't live in the US so I'm curious. I'd try to move to another state if they tried to take away my rights.
viq@chris it takes money. It takes a lot of money. Money that most people absolutely don't have.
And speaking of money, when and how do you find a job at your destination?
And speaking of money, when and how do you find a job at your destination?
@viq I recently moved to another state within germany for a job. I didn't find it that expensive. It wasn't free but it was not too much either. But I see that I have some benefits: I don't have a house, I had a job in sight, germany is smaller and I had some money saved.
@chris moving to another state would probably be better compared to moving to say Spain, minus the language barrier and *some* of the paperwork.
A lot of potential work places won't talk to you unless you're where they are.
A lot of potential work places won't talk to you unless you're where they are.
@viq That's so odd. When I moved I just applied and went to an in person interview once. When I got my contract I started the moving process. It was stressful and annoying but that was about it. It sucks that is so hard to move wihtin the same country. United States sounds increasingly like Loosely Connected States. But still working in Spain (minus the langauge barrier) wouldn't be that hard either I think.
@viq I apply remotely
@chris and you get "you're not here, we aren't hiring remotely". Or "please come to our office on Tuesday morning for an interview".
@viq That sucks and explains a lot. It's a very archaic way of doing this.
@chris (and you don't get paid for the days you're not at current work. Also your boss can decide they don't like you not being there, and it seeming you're looking for other work, so you're fired)
@viq Yeah I forgot about that. In germany you have a minimum of 4 weeks of vacation time (excluding sick time) and you always have a work contract with usually around 1-6 months (in my jobs it was always 3 months) of notice.
@chris now imagine you have a family.
Can you afford two separate living places? Lol.
Can you afford to live for some time off of single person's salary? Lmao.
So you need to find jobs for *two* people, where you don't have paid time off, everyone will want to see you in person, and won't be interested if you don't have a local address.
Can you afford two separate living places? Lol.
Can you afford to live for some time off of single person's salary? Lmao.
So you need to find jobs for *two* people, where you don't have paid time off, everyone will want to see you in person, and won't be interested if you don't have a local address.
AnneH
BΓ€r und Elch@chris Wow, seriously? Why? Aren't they desperate to get good employees? I (European as well) am amazed at how little I know about the US sometimes.
Zimmie@chris @viq Thereβs the problem of distance. Georgia is deep in the conservative portion of the country. It would take traveling about 850 km to get from the capital of Georgia to the nearest state in which abortion is legal. Thatβs only a little less than the distance from the southernmost point in Germany to the northernmost.
The barriers are mostly distance. The USA is really, really big. A friend is in the process of moving about 1250 km, and Iβm considering moving almost 3400.
Cassi@chris @viq Germany is a small country, in comparison to the United States. The distance from Seattle to New York City (to give an extreme coast-to-coast move example) is 4590 km. That's a 42-hour car trip or 5 - 6.5h plane trip. Imagine the cost of hiring a moving company and the amount of time it takes until your stuff gets to your destination.
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David Collantes@chris @georgetakei moving, as in, to live in a different state? It is the same as moving on any other country: you need to find work, place to live, etc. It is a big hurdle.
@david @georgetakei I understand that it's not free but it would be my main concern. But I honestly lack the perspective on how big of a hurdle it is? How expensive is it to move? How hard is it to get a new job? I just know how it was for me to move withing germany and that was annoying but not a huge hurdle.
@chris @georgetakei it is a big hurdle. Finding jobs with the current regime is hard, the economy is weak. The US is huge and moving across state lines is expensive, specially if you have a family, and own a house. It also means leaving friends and, often, family behind.
Bottomline, no one is permanently moving to another state to simply abort a pregnancy. Thatβs, well, infeasible.
@david @georgetakei I didn't think about doing it just to abort a pregnancy. It's more about regaining some rights that were taken away. I can honestly say that if my current state would do something that made me less free I'd leave and find another job in another state. But I see that this seems to be easier to do within germany or even the EU.
Jennifer Kayla | Theogrin π¦Moving anywhere in the United States is a Brobdingnagian undertaking unless you're wealthy, and those most at risk of being hit by criminal fines and imprisonment for evading an abortion ban in such a way are anything but. (The wealthy are also unlikely to be arrested as a whole.)
Of course, if it's life or death...
@theogrin @georgetakei I start to see that now. I assumed it must be something like that but I just couldn't imagine.
ts π@chris @georgetakei moving is typically a significant undertaking, regardless of where one moves to
Bill Brock@chris @georgetakei Ask Dred Scott.
Jimmy@georgetakei One thing about the Georgia law is that you can't buy your way out of it with a plane ticket. Not that I expect them to prosecute people who can travel.
hkystar35@georgetakei don't even have to go as far as Hawaii. Idaho outlaws gambling, I can't even work remotely for a company in Nevada that's associated to gambling while residing in Idaho.
Nicole ParsonsEvery fascist movement weaponizes "Kinder, Kuche, Kirche" social policies against women.
https://abn.org.ua/en/documents/kinder-kirche-kuche-as-a-mirror-of-the-russian-world/
It's an early sign of the militarization of society in preparation for expansionist wars, according to historian Gwynn Dyer in his documentary "War".
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwynne_Dyer
They're often disguised as sumptuary laws.
https://www.rawstory.com/salon-s-amanda-marcotte-on-why-trump-s-tariff-dolls-talk-reveals-a-deeper-misogyny/
https://msmagazine.com/2025/05/13/trump-dolls-toys-girls-inflation-tariff-supply-chain/
DianeI feel like they left off the fact they only care about slave state's rights.
Mark vW@georgetakei I thought States Rights simply meant racial segregation....
Luna chan@georgetakei This right here.