Truth is not an echo chamber, accepting other people who aren't hurting anyone just by existing isn't an echo chamber, kindness isn't an echo chamber.
I don't need to consider "alternate beliefs" that are just lies. There's this idea that if I'm not constantly reading stuff by straight up Nazis, that I won't understand that they are Nazis. Not having to read nonsense as possible facts is one of the really cool things about having critical thinking skills.
@RickiTarr @Vive_Levant I hate headlines like that because of people who think that the takeaway is in the headline.
Echo chamber aren’t a myth. They are very real and there are even a few on mastodon.
The myth is that they matter. The people who limit themselves to echo chambers wouldn’t change their views even with exposure to a wide range of opinions.
Echo chambers exist because of close minded people; people don’t close their minds because of the echo chambers.
@RickiTarr @Vive_Levant from which I quote “3. The percent of people who actually live in an echo chamber is probably in the single digits”.
As I said, the article doesn’t say that echo chambers are a myth. The myth, according to the article, is that echo chambers create the closed minds; the reality being that the closed minds create the echo chambers.
This seems kinda reply guy, guy.
Sorry, I was of course merely being facetious and was prodding at the "someone will ask for a [reference]" thing 🙂
@RickiTarr OMFG, I had my best friend trying to convince me that! He'd been to a presentation by researchers who'd been studying this place and I countered with, "Well, I'm pretty sure nobody I interact with has seen or heard of that research, so they're pretty shit at their jobs if they can't reach the huge shitposting accounts, the scientists, the computer people, the news sites or ya, know, beige party."
"But it's an echo chamber."
"BEIGE!"
A bit besides the point, but if you'll indulge me:
There are people who refer to echo chamber as a short for wanting a worse signal-to-noise.
At the same time it should be said that echo chamber isn't purely about data vs. lies, but also about points-of-view on the data. If the data is handled in an "echo chamber", the output may well be "true", but not appliable to the spectrum of reality.
½
2/3
For example, in the history of Finnish politics (an example I'll use due to passing knowledge), there have been times when one party/ideology has raisen hegemonic. This has led to a situation where the people appointed from the party OR the ideas put forth by the same weren't fire-tested (so to say).
End-result was that you got sycophants and/or idiots who knew how to treat the party line, but didn't understand that the party line wasn't reality, but a simplified model.
3/4
Currently (and again, I'm speaking of Finland) the hegemonic idea is the effectiveness of markets against state-intervention or -services. This has led to legistlation that doesn't create effective markets, as the model used is too simplistic, leading instead to oligopolies and thus raising costs and falling services.
In this definition, does Mastodon have an echo chamber?
4/4
I can't speak for the fediverse as a whole, but presently we have council elections in Finland.
A list of candidates with Mastodon-accounts (some of them inactive) were made by @teemuki, with results:
Socialist Party 32 profiles (public support less than 10%; disclaimer: my party)
Greens 14 (10%)
Communist Party 2 (>1%)
Social Democrats 1 (20%)
Keskusta 1 (15%)
Eläinoikeuspuolue 1 (>1%).
In certain defintion of the term, this bubble of Fedi is clearly an echo chamber.
@iju
@MartyFouts @RickiTarr @Vive_Levant
In order to actually warp and close minds, an echo chamber has to be BIG and powerful enough to limit what ideas a person is ever exposed to.
When somebody is RAISED in an echo chamber through childhood, that can really do it. But it has to happen in a controlled physical community, not just one online network. A cultish household and/or isolated town, an education system...
The cultural hegemony of a whole nation saturated with propaganda, especially one walled by a language barrier, now THAT is an echo chamber that stunts minds en masse.
@RickiTarr Exactly. Mastodon is not designed to be an echo chamber. It might function like one if someone doesn't take part in actively curating their own feed. Follow two people they know from Muskville, and that's it...
I'd say echo chambers tend to have algorithms.
@RickiTarr So, in your definition, "echo chamber" necessarily includes "evil propaganda"; while my definition is the dry technical view of the ideas' flow and the social dynamics that are involved?
They already perverted the Truth. If they subscribe to your definition of echo chamber, and I assume they do: by insinuating that we're an echo chamber they're effectively reinforcing the scientific method (among other topics, I just picked an example) as "evil propaganda" now.
@RickiTarr And yet, we are here because we want to hear that multitude of ideas, backed by verifiable sources. Which is in itself contrary to the authoritarian mindset, so they call it leftist-libertarian propaganda.
Which means, assuming your associations with echo chambers are shared by most people, those who call us an echo chamber are reinforcing the notion of us as propagandists.
Which validates your original post in my opinion: We have all reason to be agitated about us being called an echo chamber.
@tecoholic @RickiTarr "It's the mark of an educated mind to entertain an idea without accepting it." Needs the corollary that education also lets you know when it's the same 'idea' again and again.
Hell, it's basic pattern recognition.
I have been reading history and politics for years. When I was young, the first photos of the Holocaust came out. I have never lost that one point: mass murder is always wrong and no people ever, anywhere, should be mass murdered.Extensive reading has allowed me to recognize nascent Nazis and Fascism. We are in a world of hurt but I hope you all have your own moral compass to get you through. It helps with the disinformation a lot too. Remember: Evil is the opposite of Live!
When I read research papers about how other platforms will spread toxic waste before your very eyes within seconds of making your first post, I have no regrets about choosing to spend my time here.
Here I am educated, entertained and have constructive conversation.
If those things don’t appeal to folks, they are welcome to go back to the Hellscape that is X and Meta, whose owners have kissed the ring of #Trump.
Coming to Mastodon from Twitter feels like busting in the door loudly brandishing a half drunk bottle of tequila and finding everyone sitting in horrified silence holding cups of tea and academic papers
@maxleibman @RickiTarr OMG LIBERAL BIAS
That the words "Liberal bias" are equivalent to "Truth" is admittedly difficult to understand. There are also crazy liberals. Driven mad by having to explain to the conservatives OVER and OVER and OVER
@RickiTarr Yep - avoiding an echo chamber is important, but doesn't mean you have to waste time on obvious propaganda and bullshit.
"Keep an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out"
100% this.
The idea of an informed exchange of ideas presupposes that both parties are interested in being informed and in furthering understanding.
If one party is only interested in sowing despair, hate and confusion an informed exchange is no longer possible.
Nazis will nazi. They don't have alternate beliefs - they have genocidal hatred and bigotry.
@RickiTarr No I say you duty to consider alternate beliefs so you can be sure that they are lies and that what you believe is actually true.
That is, you need to do that if you want to have a higher level of confidence in what you believe, especially in what other people have convinced you of.
There's no alternative to the scientific method.
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