problemuserFeb 23, 2025
Darrin L Rogers

Every LMS I've ever used has convinced me of the importance of user-centered #design. A huge issue in all of them (#moodle, #brightspace, and #blackboard) is the sheer, mind-numing, RSI-inducing number of mouse clicks required to do almost anything.

Nearly every task in an #LMS has the potential to be done thousands of times per semester or more by an instructor. Reasonable, intuitive, ergonomic keyboard shortcuts would be very helpful. They rarely exist.

#highered #professor

Feb 8, 2024 at 1:44pmWeb
Show threadBrendan HalpinFeb 8, 2024
@DarrinLRogers I've been pressing our crew (#Brightspace) to allow e.g., upload of group membership from CSV, but it's not yet possible
Show threadDarrin L RogersFeb 8, 2024
@bthalpin Wait, that's not possible? Ugh. Every time I find something was *easier* in moodle, I feel like a huge opportunity has been missed.
Show threadBrendan HalpinFeb 8, 2024
@DarrinLRogers Our learning techs say "it's going to happen, be patient", but I see stuff online from BS people saying "we didn't think that would be necessary"
Show threadDarrin L RogersFeb 8, 2024
@bthalpin Of course they didn't. They know they'll get multi-year commitments (therefore subscriptions) from a bunch of universities with decisions made by people who would not know to ask such questions.
Show threadDarrin L RogersFeb 8, 2024
@bthalpin And Oh yeah we were recently force-transitioned from moodle to brightspace. Overall I like its look and have found a few things easier to do, but a huge amount of the work I put into moodle courses over the past decade will be lost because Brightspace can't intelligently import things or just can't do them. I'm a bit of an edge case, using exams/quizzes for fancy stats things, but yes, that is me. I can no longer do things.
Show threadBrendan HalpinFeb 8, 2024
@DarrinLRogers I use Shiny for the quiz/exam stuff, so I'm independent in that much. OTOH, I have managed to build a BS setup where I can manage content via webdav and Makefiles (meaning minimal interaction with the content builder stuff, and almost automated updating week by week).
Show threadDarrin L RogersFeb 8, 2024
@bthalpin Damn! I might try Shiny. I've used it before, but not for this. I don't know if my administration's prohibition against using other online learning tools extends to that. I don't know if I have the know-how for your other things, but they are giving me beautiful ideas.
Show threadBrendan HalpinFeb 8, 2024
@DarrinLRogers Shiny's not an LMS, if that's what they mean. As far as I'm concerned, it's mostly just a nice way to make R functionality available over the web.
Show threadDarrin L RogersFeb 8, 2024

@bthalpin Oh, I kind of know Shiny. I'm just asking myself,

1. Would it be covered under the somewhat broad language in the provost & dean's prohibitions?

2. Is it safer to ask that question or not?

Show threadDarrin L RogersFeb 12, 2024

@bthalpin Brightspace is killing me (import of massive question library from moodle appears fine, but isn't; worst kind of problem IMO).

I'm going to learn to build exams in Shiny and just provide the link via Brightspace, hoping that will not be seen as rule-breaking by my dean et al.

If you have anything pre-written about how to do this, I'm very, very interested. If not, I'm sure I'll figure it out eventually, and thank you for reminding me of Shiny and its abilities.

Show threadBrendan HalpinFeb 12, 2024

@DarrinLRogers I did a presentation on it a few years ago: https://teaching.sociology.ul.ie/shiny/quantsoc.pdf

It's in pretty general terms, but it touches on most of what I thought were the main issues. The main ones are persistent storage (e.g., database of answers) and verifying students' identities.

Show threadDarrin L RogersFeb 12, 2024
@bthalpin Thank you ONE BILLION.
Show threadTravis FloresFeb 8, 2024
@DarrinLRogers it may be the design of the platform you’re using. A&M uses canvas and I have rarely heard about any ergonomic issues like that from any of the teachers who use it.
Show threadDarrin L RogersFeb 8, 2024
@Tflofasho Maybe. Never used Canvas. I also have zero choice in the matter.
Show threadLone Koefoed HansenFeb 12, 2024

@DarrinLRogers the exam system where I’m at: 4 clicks every time I finish a comment in a student essay, if I want the student to be able to read the comment. I ended up making fewer comments…

Either give me a global setting (yes, all comments are visible unless..) or a keyboard shortcut. Preferably both.

Show threadDarrin L RogersFeb 12, 2024
@Koefoed I think every LMS creator figured out a while ago that they don't actually have to make a system that works best for instructors and students; they just need to sell it to provosts and presidents, then they will get paid for the next decade or so, no matter what :(
Show threadIan BickingFeb 12, 2024

@DarrinLRogers @Koefoed A classic Principal-Agent problem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principal%E2%80%93agent_problem

This is a problem in most enterprise software, though it does feel like it's worse in education. Maybe literal layers of the Principal-Agent problem... arguably students are the Principal and instructors are the Agent. And then instructors become the Principal and administrators the Agent. But then there's often other stakeholders even further removed who are themselves driving the behavior of the administrators

Principal–agent problem - Wikipedia

Show threadDarrin L RogersFeb 13, 2024
@ianbicking @Koefoed Thanks for this. I finally have a name for a thing that I've been seeing around me for years. Yeah, this seems pretty much exactly what's going on.
Show threadLone Koefoed HansenFeb 13, 2024
@ianbicking @DarrinLRogers it’s a good term!
Also, it is not necessarily not-wanting to build good software, but instead not-knowing enough. I went to shout at a corporate software company once (they invited me to talk to their developers), and my slides were basically images of my office and a description of my work tasks. All they had ever met was people who IMAGINED what tasks and circumstances would be like. Then, obviously, you wouldn’t know how 4 clicks can be 3-4 too many.
Show threadDarrin L RogersFeb 13, 2024
@Koefoed @ianbicking I faintly recall a "feedback" and "testing" phase for this LMS at our school, but I don't know anyone who got to test drive it before we had it implemented. Your experience sounds like what must be behind a lot of decisions like this. And yeah, for my semester (small enrollment school): 4 clicks x 10 assignments/exams x 100 students per semester would be 4,000 clicks just to submit feedback. Maybe clicks are like compound interest...