Noah SussmanFeb 13, 2025
Charlie Stross

Time for a footnote to this: nearly 40 years of writing my stories on computers has taught me two things:

1. Always have backups. More than you think you need, too (backups can go bad).

2. Always have an exit strategy from a hardware, operating system, or writing software choice: vendors can go bad or remove support for older products.

Sub-footnote: Linux isn't an exit strategy, it's a 9-5 job. Open source is less bad than closed, but rug-pulls are still possible.
https://wandering.shop/@cstross/113995800386923701

Charlie Stross (@[email protected])

Time for Day 13 of #WritersCoffeeClub , many thanks to @johnhowesauthor . How do you organise your writing projects? I work in Scrivener. One project per novel. Possibly supplementary notes in SimpleNote, before I import them into Scriv when I begin writing. Each project lives in a folder along with supplementary stuff, namely generated drafts in export file formats, backups, and so on. Current "live" projects temporarily reside in a separate folder in my Dropbox (for cross-device syncing).

The Wandering Shop
Feb 13, 2025 at 2:31pmWeb
Show threadrk: it’s hyphen-minus actuallyFeb 13, 2025

@cstross

Or pull a Robert J. Sawyer and never leave WordStar ever…

Show threadCharlie StrossFeb 13, 2025
@rk WordStar is pish but I'd happily continue using Borland Sprint forever if that was really an option. (Alas, it's DOS-only abandonware at this point, and they never really did get round to fixing all the bugs.)
Show threadNefarious CeltFeb 13, 2025

@cstross @rk ah Borland. C++3.51. This application has thrown an exception Do you want to save?…
If you want to trash all open files click yes.

Sweet memories laughing at colleagues who don’t ALT F L ALT P B

Show threadmhdFeb 13, 2025

@cstross @rk Wonder if someone actually does. I remember reading that XyWrite was very common amongst journalists, but that was 10+ years ago already, and maybe fewer cycles between writer and editor.

Wonder how famous one would have to be, to still be able to submit typewritten manuscripts ;)

Show threadJernej Simončič �Feb 13, 2025
@cstross @rk About 15 years ago one of my clients ordered a top-of-the-line workstation – the then-new i7 CPU, 8 GB RAM, SSD, then asked me to make sure QuattroPro works on it. I set it up through DOSBox, with an icon on the desktop, and even managed to make printing work.
Show threadAmateur HumanFeb 13, 2025
@jernej__s @cstross @rk niice.
Motherboard win11 compatible?...
Show threadJernej Simončič �Feb 13, 2025
@djstreethawk @cstross @rk That was 1st gen i7 860, so technically not. However, since the CPU does support the POPCNT instruction (which is the only real requirement for running Windows 11 24H2), it would be possible to install it.
Show threadAmateur HumanFeb 13, 2025

@jernej__s @cstross @rk 😁 I'm so glad to read that

I'm indirectly responsible for an inevitable end of lifer run by my partner :/

Then I stupidly let DSA provide her with the replacement.

Too much misery

Show threadDaniel LakelandFeb 13, 2025
@cstross
Linux requires work, but 9-5 job is a bit hyperbolic. The FAI (fully automated installer) project's USB image can wipe your computer and give you a working Debian install in like 5 minutes and 3 keystrokes. So worst case if you're just trying to get shit done and have data backups is you "reset to factory default" in 5 minutes.
Show threadCharlie StrossFeb 13, 2025

@dlakelan See, you're talking like a sysadmin there, not a lowly user. When I say it's a 9-5 job I'm talking from the PoV of Getting Stuff Done. And if you want to accomplish a task and ask about it on the net, these days 95% of the time all you'll get is a fucking youtube link at best and "get in the sea, n00b" at worst.

This is not a viable ecosystem for users. (And I don't have the cognitive bandwidth to pick up from where I used to be all over again, 20 years later.)

Show threadDaniel LakelandFeb 13, 2025
@cstross
I mean, fair about the YouTube links, hate those, and it's fine if you don't want to switch to something different deep into your accumulated knowledge of a different ecosystem. But if you're a 20 year old today you could easily find working on Debian largely in a browser extremely similar to what you're likely used to already (Chromebooks) so it's not reasonable to scare the kids off is all I'm saying.
Show threadCharlie StrossFeb 13, 2025
@dlakelan Fair 'nuff. But Linux has become gnarly and opaque and covered in cruft (what is this systemd you speak of, foreign devil? Begone foul fiend! And take your Wayland and Kubernetes with you!) I'd be kinda happy with a circa-2003 KDE 3.x based distro for most things, frankly.
Show threadSteve BellovinFeb 13, 2025
@cstross @dlakelan I have almost 60 years of doing sysadmin-type stuff, as a volunteer, a day job, or in support of research efforts for myself and my students. You're 100% right about a) the need for backups and b) how painful it is to keep Linux systems running and up to date. (Up to date is important because of the many, many security holes in software that is supposedly secure because it's open source. Feh.)
Show threadRobert ThauFeb 13, 2025

@SteveBellovin @cstross @dlakelan FWIW, most of the top-tier Linux distributions these days frequently update individual packages, and make installation a one-click process. give or take the occasional reboot. But that pushes it back to how far you trust them to manage the update stream.

(For me, having used both, the nuisance level is about comparable to MacOS updates. IMHO, for most people, lack of *real* MS office support, or other Windows/Mac apps -- Scrivener? -- is a much bigger issue.)

Show threadM.S. Bellows, Jr.Feb 13, 2025
@rst @SteveBellovin @cstross @dlakelan So... when they force me into Windows 11, do I just grit my teeth and take it, or do I switch to Linux?
Show threadDaniel LakelandFeb 13, 2025
@msbellows
Seriously, FAI and then maybe flatpak for Firefox, thunderbird, and Libre office would get you really far in a user friendly way if you just want a user level experience.
@rst @SteveBellovin @cstross
Show threadSteve BellovinFeb 13, 2025
@dlakelan @msbellows @rst @cstross I know how to do all of these things. I've installed patches and upgrades for a long time, including new punch card decks of the OS, binary patches (either permanently applied to the binary or dynamically installed at load time), IBM PUT tapes (with cumulative updates since the last release), source or binary patches for *BSD, Windows since 3.1 (though I've finally rid myself of that, mostly because I'm not productive on it), MacOS’ mostly all-in-one click or tap to install, apt on various incarnations of Ubuntu and more, etc. My point is that I don't *want* to do these things—I want higher quality software with fewer bugs and fewer pointless “features", especially those involving AI (Artificial Ineptness?).
I'm not a Luddite (in the popular sense, not the actual historical meaning) by any means—I am, after all, a computer science prof with, as I said, almost 60 years of sysadmin experience. But I'm also a user, and time spent maintaining a system is time not available for productive work or relaxation.
Show threadSteven D. Brewer 🏳️‍⚧️Feb 13, 2025
@SteveBellovin @dlakelan @msbellows @rst @cstross I will put on my asbestos hip boots to wade in and say that you really can mostly treat linux like a commercial OS now. Normal users don't need to care whether background services start up via init.d (like God intended) or systemd. All they need to do is click a slider someplace. And if you don't like what's going one with one linux distribution, just switch to a different one. The differences are now mostly hidden from view to ordinary users.
Show threadSteven D. Brewer 🏳️‍⚧️Feb 13, 2025
@SteveBellovin @dlakelan @msbellows @rst @cstross And all normal users need to worry about is using their apps: Libreoffice works on all of them. And text files are text files. Plus there are web-browsers that work the same across all of them. Sysadmin types can worry about the stuff under the hood, but ordinary users really can mostly ignore this stuff now.
Show threadRobert ThauFeb 13, 2025
@dlakelan @msbellows @SteveBellovin @cstross Well, how far depends on use case -- for example, if you want a paint program, GIMP (they haven't renamed it *yet*?) works OK for some folks, once they get to know it, but it's really idiosyncratic. And LibreOffice interoperates OK for simple documents, but AIUI, when you're trying to exchange really messy spreadsheets with "real" Office, or handle change tracking in elaborately structured documents, seams start to show.
Show threadSzymon Sokół 🇵🇱🇪🇺🇺🇦Feb 13, 2025
@msbellows @rst @SteveBellovin @cstross @dlakelan well, I did switch to Linux and ditched Windows completely. However, I am an active sysadmin, and I have been using Linux on servers since previous century, and almost as long at my work desktop. The only thing that kept me using Windows at home were those few games I play - and as soon as I was sure I can run them on Linux (using Proton) there was no reason to suffer any longer. This is not to say that I recommend Linux to everyone, and to reasons pointed by @SteveBellovin and @cstross I'd like to add one of my own: some people rely in their daily routine on specialized software that may have no Linux counterpart. But if your needs are rather vanilla and you're tech-savvy enough (or have a friendly Linux expert at hand) switching from Windows to Linux is surprisingly painless.
Show threadPareFeb 13, 2025

@cstross @dlakelan Anecdote: I have been running some kind of Linux at home, at least as a secondary OS, for over 25 years. I’ve been running Kubuntu for most of that.

But now… the latest LTS upgrade broke the graphical system. I realized I have no idea if it’s X or Wayland, and the documentation is, to put it nicely, abysmal. I haven’t been able to fix it, and I think if I want to get it to a usable state, it’s re-install time.

Fuck that shit. Not sure when I get around to it.

Show threadSpacewizard! (Ed H)Feb 13, 2025
@cstross @dlakelan "being upset by the knowledge that somewhere under the surface, systemd is running insted of sysvinit, and wayland is powering your display rather than X11" seems like sysadmin thinking to me.
Show threadknirirrFeb 13, 2025

@cstross have you looked at Fedora Silverblue at all? I have found this to require very little work as a Desktop OS.

https://www.howtogeek.com/why-ive-gone-all-in-on-fedora-silverblue/

Why I've Gone All In on Fedora Silverblue

There's more to like here than just those two (admitedly awesome) colors.

How-To Geek
Show threadSunshine and WindFeb 14, 2025

@cstross
Interesting that almost all the feedback is about installing and managing Linux as OS. And what @cstross wants is boot to can start writing.

So OS install is a thing, but then there is reinstall and customise a d telling apps to use these fonts, paths. Navigating in apps to locate his files from backups, etc etc. As well as more mundane things like password maintenance, desktop backgrounds and screensaver, etc.

The user environment is not just the OS.
@dlakelan

Show threadDaniel LakelandFeb 15, 2025
@WigglyWigtails
That's why I'm saying FAI, because it gives you a working desktop environment after 3-4 keystrokes and some wait time. You can even type in the package names for packages you need to the FAIme server. Though that's just slightly higher than user level, with some appropriate notes from someone you could make a custom image with Firefox, thunderbird, libreoffice, gimp, inkscape, and you're basically working in 10 mins.
@cstross
Show threadCharlie StrossFeb 15, 2025
@dlakelan @WigglyWigtails Those are the most popular apps, yes. But with the exception of Firefox and Thunderbird, they're not part of *my* workflow.
Show threadDaniel LakelandFeb 15, 2025
@cstross
Yes I get that. But within the thread now there are others asking what *they* should do, so I'm trying to be helpful for those who are considering the switch.
@WigglyWigtails
Show threadKarl AuerbachFeb 13, 2025

@cstross @dlakelan We've run our entire company administration on Linux (Fedora/KDE) for years.

I've found that Linux requires rather less fussing than Windows, is easier to install, is easier to back up, and is far more reliable (and runs on older hardware too.)

The applications have gotten fairly mature. At our office we seem to have developed two camps - those who use LibreOffice and those who use Google Docs.

I am personally far more of a fan of the IBM/RedHat/Fedora distributions of Linux than of the Ubuntu and Debian distributions. And I find KDE to be a lot more rational of a desktop system than the more common GNome desktops.

Show threadCharlie StrossFeb 13, 2025
@karlauerbach You may find Linux is less fuss than Windows, but I *absolutely refuse* to use Windows, so that's not much use to me.
Show threadKarl AuerbachFeb 13, 2025
@cstross Linux is decidedly *not* Windoz. So your concern about using Linux ought to be assuaged.
Show threadNefarious CeltFeb 13, 2025
@dlakelan @cstross but to get to a useable machine requires a lot of Man searching or google fuck foo which other platforms do not require.
Turnkey appliances in linux are fine.
Show threadAngela Korra'tiFeb 13, 2025

@cstross LOLOLOL "Linux isn't an exit strategy, it's a 9-5 job." BOY HOWDY is it.

My house has regularly joked "Open source is the future OF PAIN". ;D And I saw this as someone whose house has three Linux servers!

Show threadHugo MillsFeb 13, 2025

@cstross A favourite war-story of mine: when I was writing up my PhD, I ran out of space on my main partition. So I used PartitionMagic to resize it. It failed -- the whole partition was lost. The off-site backup (via dial-up modem to the office every night) was dead because the HD in that machine had failed that morning.

The CD-RW backup had corruption halfway through the disk, and the rest wasn't readable.

The tape backup didn't work, for some reason (I can't remember why now). 1/2

Show threadHugo MillsFeb 13, 2025

@cstross
Eventually, I found the one remaining copy of the text that wasn't on paper, in the CF card in my Psion 5mx, where I'd used it on a long train trip the previous week.

Backups are what all the cool kids are doing these days, I hear.

2/2

Show threadPYM le pirate capoeiristeFeb 13, 2025
@darkling @cstross 😱
Show threadkbalFeb 13, 2025
If Debian ever does a "rug pull" and turns evil my plan is to give up computers and make a living foraging for berries and scraping the lichen from rocks.
Show threadlemgandiFeb 13, 2025
@kbal @cstross And hunting deer with a flintlock muzzle-loader. Technology that's REALLY hard to break.
Show threadkdgregoryFeb 13, 2025

@cstross Do you use text-based markup as an exit strategy?

Or is Scrivener's internal format well documented and simple enough to translate? (or does it even have its own format? Wikipedia seemed to indicate it supported multiple 3rd-party formats)

Show threadCharlie StrossFeb 13, 2025
@kdgregory Yes and Yes. Internally, a Scriv project is: a folder hierarchy (backups are a zip) containing rtfd documents (Apple's embrace-and-extend on Microsoft RTF, with added rich content support) and some XML metadata. But I export as markdown, too. @scrivenerapp is created by a small business with n > 1 programmer, and I've been using it for close to 17 years at this point: it doesn't update often.
Show threadDevon EllingtonFeb 13, 2025
@cstross
Excellent reminders, thank you.
Show threadAlisonW ♿🏳️‍🌈♾️Feb 13, 2025
@cstross
A script-writer friend of mine phoned me at 3am one night in anguish that she'd lost almost a day of work because she hadn't pressed 'save'. I had to tell her it wasn't recoverable.
Show threadRoboRevFeb 13, 2025
@cstross I definitely think you are doing a disservice to Linux here... As a new user of Linux this year, I consider myself one of those “lowly” users. I agree that there needs to be a simpler overall experience to achieve wider adoption, but my time with Linux has been relatively headache free, at least no more than windows. Being on some forums, I was warned about older users like you who poo-poo Wayland, systemd and reject change even when they are objectively better…
Show threadCainmark Does Not Comply 🚲Feb 13, 2025

@RoboRev @cstross

I think it depends on how old your desktop or laptop is. My newer laptop has no problems. My 2016 desktop apparently hates systemd. Works fine with previous versions that don't have it.

A brand new machine with Linux already installed is probably good way to go, no partitioning or grapics card learning curve.

Show threadDaniel LakelandFeb 13, 2025

@RoboRev @cstross

Thanks for bringing some perspective from the trenches. Your experience is about what I expect. I think there are many war wounded from the 2000-2010 era who are more gun-shy than is warranted today.

Show threadLife is TetrisFeb 13, 2025

@dlakelan @RoboRev @cstross I do wonder how #HaikuOS would do for your personal computing. Maybe it is what contributors should have been polishing all these years instead of donating their time to corporate bottomlines via Linux.

https://haiku-os.org it seems to be OK on older hardware, hosts its own code repository (not on Github), runs its own friendly forum at https://discuss.haiku-os.org and its few contributors have been steadily at it for decades.

Haiku Project

Haiku is an open-source operating system that specifically targets personal computing. Inspired by BeOS, Haiku is fast and easy to learn but very powerful.

Haiku Project
Show threadkatzenberger 🇺🇦Feb 13, 2025

@cstross

Could you elaborate a bit on the open source rug-pulls that you've experienced? Sounds interesting.

Show threadCharlie StrossFeb 13, 2025
@katzenberger Your CLASSIC example was Red Hat killing off source code distribution for RHELand killing off CentOS.
Show threadGuitarsophistFeb 13, 2025
@cstross Whether Linux is a lot of work depends a lot on the distro. When I was running Manjaro it did seem so. Every time there was an update, which was every couple of weeks, it seemed like I had to learn something new in the terminal. However, I switched back to Linux Mint, and updates are easy. I write in LibreOffice and record in Reaper. It is all cool. I haven't used Windows for years. I had a Macbook once, but it didn't like to work with projectors, which made presentations awkward, sometimes in front of 400 people, so I had the university tech put Windows on it.
Show threadNemoFeb 13, 2025
@cstross it's much more of a 20% FTA these days!
Show threadRob LandleyFeb 13, 2025

@cstross "Replication is not backup."

"A backup you've never restored from isn't real."

"A snapshot is not a reproduction sequence."

"If you can't reproduce it from a set of instructions and generic starting materials in a clean lab, what you're doing is not science."

And so on. Things I yell out in meetings when feeling old and crotchety.