MikeDunnAuthorThis is a far too common occurrence in the U.S.
And people wonder why Luigi is so popular?
BeeCycling has moved@MikeDunnAuthor A diabetic dying from lack of insulin in a modern, rich country, in the 21st century is insane. It's a deliberate choice to just let people die for being poor. In the UK anyone prescribed insulin gets not only their insulin prescription free, but all their other prescriptions too. Almost the entire UK population would consider you a maniac if you proposed allowing diabetic people to just die if they couldn't pay for insulin.
MarjorieR@beecycling @MikeDunnAuthor probably worth adding that the average manufacturer cost of insulin in the USA is 13 times the cost (presumably the price to our NHS) in the UK. ($98.70 vs $7.52 per vial).
"A landmark study published by the RAND Corporation in 2020 analyzed the average price of several different forms of insulin (human, analog, rapid, rapid-intermediate, short, short-intermediate, intermediate, and long-acting) in 33 countries of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), which includes most of the world's developed countries and high-income countries. The study revealed that the manufacturer price for any given type of insulin averaged five to ten times higher in the U.S. ($98.70 USD) than in all other OECD countries ($8.81 on average). Even when using net prices, which incorporate possible rebates, U.S. prices would be roughly four times higher than in other countries."
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/cost-of-insulin-by-country
@marjolica @MikeDunnAuthor Oh yes, that's one of the things I think makes Americans think universal health care paid by taxes can't work because their taxes would have to be huge to afford it - not realising that their healthcare costs are hugely inflated from what they should be because of the perverse incentives built into their system.
derptron@beecycling @marjolica @MikeDunnAuthor They need to consider their insurance payment a tax. Then look at the budget and realize that the part that's actually labeled "tax" is already like 1/2 for medical insurance for older people.
My tax burden is around 1.5k a month. The cheapest HSA qualified plan I could find is almost $800 a month. Anything cheaper and the deductible is too high to be considered "high".
So something around 2/3 of my taxes goes to medical insurance, considered this way.
Andreas K@crazyeddie
Absolutely.
Around here "social security" (health care + pension contributions + half a dozen other minor things like unemployment) is certainly the bigger burden than legal taxes for average citizens. (And notice the difference is our healthcare contribution is based not on our health but on our income up to the cut off point)
But then what is the alternative?
Letting people die because of chronic illness?
Letting the old starve?
@beecycling @marjolica @MikeDunnAuthor
@crazyeddie
Besides these options, letting people simple for of treatable illness or let them starve are not exactly compatible with human rights.
Yes I know the USA is not exactly a champion of human rights, they just like to use them as a rhetoric weapon against foreign countries.
@beecycling @marjolica @MikeDunnAuthor
@yacc143
Quite. The US doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to at least try to be the country it claims to be. The champion of freedom and implacable enemy of tyranny. Its people have died bravely fighting for that. Americans who liberated concentration camps saw first hand the evil they were risking their own lives to halt the spread of and knew they were fighting for the right side. The US owes it to their people to continue being the right side.
@crazyeddie @marjolica @MikeDunnAuthor
Quite. The US doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to at least try to be the country it claims to be. The champion of freedom and implacable enemy of tyranny. Its people have died bravely fighting for that. Americans who liberated concentration camps saw first hand the evil they were risking their own lives to halt the spread of and knew they were fighting for the right side. The US owes it to their people to continue being the right side.
@crazyeddie @marjolica @MikeDunnAuthor
@beecycling @crazyeddie @marjolica @MikeDunnAuthor
Sadly, the USA was never that country, never wanted to be that country.
You mistook the advertising copy for a description of reality.
@beecycling @yacc143 @marjolica @MikeDunnAuthor America is, more than a great many other countries, its people. What it does, it does because its people gave it permission to on their behalf.
As one of those evil liberals that's been walking to and fro across the earth, I've discussed these matters with other Americans. We are who we are; people want this stuff--demand it even. Anyone thinking we're a bunch of saints is delusional...deranged even. Some will kill you for saying this is so.
YQN@crazyeddie @beecycling @yacc143 @marjolica @MikeDunnAuthor It's not easy to tell to what extent people allow anything. Can you really say that people are responsible when they are constantly being lied to by the state, political parties, corporates, etc.? People are manipulated, they don't have the means to allow/forbid anything.
@yqn @beecycling @yacc143 @marjolica @MikeDunnAuthor Look at the motive for believing the lie.
WHY do the American voters so regularly support the "rights" of the medical establishment, for example, to just continue to rain down misery on everyone? Ask them, they'll tell you. Yes, they're being lied to and what are these lies? Motivations for self greed and dog-eat-dog. THAT is what is "manipulating" them into killing themselves.
It is sad. I give you that.
@crazyeddie
Exactly. With most lies, you need two more per less actively participating parties. One side that lies, one side that does not extend even the minimal energy to think about the lie for a moment, so they can believe it.
Most lies in public life nowadays can be identified with one internet search at most, many can be identified by thinking for a moment.
@yqn @beecycling @marjolica @MikeDunnAuthor
@crazyeddie @beecycling @yacc143 @marjolica @MikeDunnAuthor
These are not the only lies they're told. They are told that free healthcare is expensive, when it's cheap. They are not told the cost of what they're incentivized to believe. I think it's more complex than you picture it.
However, the question remains, how do we make a better world?
@yqn @beecycling @yacc143 @marjolica @MikeDunnAuthor This reminds me of the cruise ship moral question. Is he liable because the ship sank due to breakage that would have been found in the maintenance review that was needed but he didn't do?
It's easy to find out. You just have to care enough to. If you don't care enough to, accept that this puts you in a position of ignorance. Don't be all, "let them die, kick them out," because you don't know the numbers. DUH!
@yqn
Cheap is in the eye of the beholder.
Cheaper for sure. More efficient for sure.
Now how does the cheaper get delivered, but squeezing out the massive profits out of the healthcare industry that are obscene in the US.
So yes, you can expect that the parties that benefit from the current system will not exactly welcome it.
And the craziness start with the training: medicine school is six figures.
@crazyeddie @beecycling @marjolica @MikeDunnAuthor
@yqn
Difficult. On one hand we do not do guilt by association.
So the voters technically have clean hands in a legal sense.
OTOH, that's also a huge loophole. So I don't do the murder, I just vote for it, the criminals in power give themselves immunity, and then do the murders.
Abusing legal positivism like that is a bit like incomplete induction proofs: legal positivism requires a benevolent legislator of the highest ethic standards.
@crazyeddie @beecycling @marjolica @MikeDunnAuthor
@beecycling @yacc143 @crazyeddie @marjolica @MikeDunnAuthor The US fight on the right side only by accident. The US didn't enter WWII to fight any evil, but to gain strategic influence and showcase military power. The US dropped 2 atomic bombs, 3 days apart, on civilians from a country which they knew was about to surrender. The US provided weapons for several genocides, one of which is happening right now. The US will never come any close to the lie it pretends to be. It is the very opposite.
@yacc143 @beecycling @marjolica @MikeDunnAuthor I was actually even counting FICA. I pay twice over what most people do for that. Supposedly I get it back though. 🧐
My point wasn't to object to those programs but to point out that when you add insurance, your medical portion is just...holy fuck. You're getting robbed.
Consider this too: how many taxes and other things have upper income limits...like they only tax the poor portion of your money. What are they taxes for again?
@crazyeddie @beecycling @marjolica @MikeDunnAuthor
Well, "social security" in Austria tops out at €1911.93 per month (2025 values for employees for healthcare., pension, accident coverage).
Well, "social security" in Austria tops out at €1911.93 per month (2025 values for employees for healthcare., pension, accident coverage).
@crazyeddie
Absolutely.
Around here "social security" (health care + pension contributions + half a dozen other minor things like unemployment) is certainly the bigger burden than legal taxes for average citizens. (And notice the difference is our healthcare contribution is based not on our health but on our income up to the cut off point)
But then what is the alternative?
Letting people die because of chronic illness?
Letting the old starve?
@beecycling @marjolica @MikeDunnAuthor
@beecycling
They don't understand the ultimative leverage a nation level health care system has in negotiating prices and conditions. (Oh right in the USA Medicare & co are forbidden from taking advantage of their size)
It's suddenly not billions desperately sick patients (imbalance of power) instead the pharmaceutical industry has hundreds of professional mains state level buyers as customers.
Guess why they might lobby against it.
@marjolica @MikeDunnAuthor
Estarriol, Terrorist Dragon@MikeDunnAuthor the flipside of the american system, the built in eugenics deliberately aiming to drain the poor of what little money they have and once bled dry, kill them.
Andy Fletcher@MikeDunnAuthor As a comparison in the UK you can get a 3 months supply of insulin for £9.00 (standard prescription charge) but it is worth noting that if you have a chronic disease like diabetes you are exempt from prescription fees.
State organised health care isn't the solution to everything but it is hugely better than a system where you have to pay a third party to broker your healthcare.
🇺🇦 haxadecimal 🚫👑@MikeDunnAuthor
The future conservatives want for everyone who isn't rich.
The future conservatives want for everyone who isn't rich.
Dave GoldsmithOK, that sucks. But on the other hand Musk is well on his way to becoming the world's first trillionaire.
So there's that.
MossyRua@MikeDunnAuthor Insulin is about $10 in Europe.
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/cost-of-insulin-by-country/
@MikeDunnAuthor This one is totally on congress.
Yes, the CEO's send their lobbyists over to buy them--but they're the ones putting themselves up for sale and they're the ones that could put an end to private insurance.
Also, did he not qualify for any help on the insurance payments? Anything below like 65k a year you start getting aid in my state. I bet with some help filling out the forms he would have qualified for SOMETHING.
Again, on congress for making this difficult.
Kinene⭐🐻@crazyeddie @MikeDunnAuthor Unlikely.
One has to have almost no income to qualify for that kind of medical assistance. Otherwise, one needs to pay out share-of-cost down to that amount. A friend tried to get assistance, and was told after share-of-cost that all he could keep was $600/month to live on (impossible).
gunstick@MikeDunnAuthor Cory Doctorow wrote a fiction piece several years ago. It predicted this and much much more...
catdad76@MikeDunnAuthor sure Karen
Gregly@MikeDunnAuthor @mempko There is a very simple reason why US healthcare is shit: a disturbingly large number of people in the US are eugenicists who believe the “weak” should die for the benefit of the species, or theofascists who believe that medical conditions are divine punishment, so treating them goes against God’s will.
For them, diabetics dying because they can’t afford insulin is a net positive. The system is working exactly as intended.
notsoloud
Pit mit "Klatsch"In the US I would been dead since a long time...🤢
In Germany, I've to pay just 50€ monthly for Healthcare (cause my #cancer makes it hard to work regularly - full time it would been 350€ - 500€)
But even totally sick, the insurances takes daily costs of nearly 150€ to keep me alive as long as possible...
Other European health care systems are similar or even better.
Unbelievable for us how it's "working" in the US...🤢 😭
Jürgen Trinkaus 
@MikeDunnAuthor And a not insignificant number of US citizens (presumably Trump voters) think that statutory health insurance based on the German model is communism?! God bless America, because your rulers don't do it...
sandywb14@MikeDunnAuthor
The concept of deciding between medication or food or rent is rather sick.
Yes it happens in neoliberal Europe too, but more as edge cases, not as the normal and common case as it seems to be so in the USA.