MikeDunnAuthorThis is a far too common occurrence in the U.S.
And people wonder why Luigi is so popular?
BeeCycling has moved@MikeDunnAuthor A diabetic dying from lack of insulin in a modern, rich country, in the 21st century is insane. It's a deliberate choice to just let people die for being poor. In the UK anyone prescribed insulin gets not only their insulin prescription free, but all their other prescriptions too. Almost the entire UK population would consider you a maniac if you proposed allowing diabetic people to just die if they couldn't pay for insulin.
MarjorieR@beecycling @MikeDunnAuthor probably worth adding that the average manufacturer cost of insulin in the USA is 13 times the cost (presumably the price to our NHS) in the UK. ($98.70 vs $7.52 per vial).
"A landmark study published by the RAND Corporation in 2020 analyzed the average price of several different forms of insulin (human, analog, rapid, rapid-intermediate, short, short-intermediate, intermediate, and long-acting) in 33 countries of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), which includes most of the world's developed countries and high-income countries. The study revealed that the manufacturer price for any given type of insulin averaged five to ten times higher in the U.S. ($98.70 USD) than in all other OECD countries ($8.81 on average). Even when using net prices, which incorporate possible rebates, U.S. prices would be roughly four times higher than in other countries."
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/cost-of-insulin-by-country
@marjolica @MikeDunnAuthor Oh yes, that's one of the things I think makes Americans think universal health care paid by taxes can't work because their taxes would have to be huge to afford it - not realising that their healthcare costs are hugely inflated from what they should be because of the perverse incentives built into their system.
derptron@beecycling @marjolica @MikeDunnAuthor They need to consider their insurance payment a tax. Then look at the budget and realize that the part that's actually labeled "tax" is already like 1/2 for medical insurance for older people.
My tax burden is around 1.5k a month. The cheapest HSA qualified plan I could find is almost $800 a month. Anything cheaper and the deductible is too high to be considered "high".
So something around 2/3 of my taxes goes to medical insurance, considered this way.
Andreas K@crazyeddie
Absolutely.
Around here "social security" (health care + pension contributions + half a dozen other minor things like unemployment) is certainly the bigger burden than legal taxes for average citizens. (And notice the difference is our healthcare contribution is based not on our health but on our income up to the cut off point)
But then what is the alternative?
Letting people die because of chronic illness?
Letting the old starve?
@beecycling @marjolica @MikeDunnAuthor
@crazyeddie
Besides these options, letting people simple for of treatable illness or let them starve are not exactly compatible with human rights.
Yes I know the USA is not exactly a champion of human rights, they just like to use them as a rhetoric weapon against foreign countries.
@beecycling @marjolica @MikeDunnAuthor
@yacc143
Quite. The US doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to at least try to be the country it claims to be. The champion of freedom and implacable enemy of tyranny. Its people have died bravely fighting for that. Americans who liberated concentration camps saw first hand the evil they were risking their own lives to halt the spread of and knew they were fighting for the right side. The US owes it to their people to continue being the right side.
@crazyeddie @marjolica @MikeDunnAuthor
Quite. The US doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to at least try to be the country it claims to be. The champion of freedom and implacable enemy of tyranny. Its people have died bravely fighting for that. Americans who liberated concentration camps saw first hand the evil they were risking their own lives to halt the spread of and knew they were fighting for the right side. The US owes it to their people to continue being the right side.
@crazyeddie @marjolica @MikeDunnAuthor
@beecycling @yacc143 @marjolica @MikeDunnAuthor America is, more than a great many other countries, its people. What it does, it does because its people gave it permission to on their behalf.
As one of those evil liberals that's been walking to and fro across the earth, I've discussed these matters with other Americans. We are who we are; people want this stuff--demand it even. Anyone thinking we're a bunch of saints is delusional...deranged even. Some will kill you for saying this is so.
YQN@crazyeddie @beecycling @yacc143 @marjolica @MikeDunnAuthor It's not easy to tell to what extent people allow anything. Can you really say that people are responsible when they are constantly being lied to by the state, political parties, corporates, etc.? People are manipulated, they don't have the means to allow/forbid anything.
@yqn @beecycling @yacc143 @marjolica @MikeDunnAuthor Look at the motive for believing the lie.
WHY do the American voters so regularly support the "rights" of the medical establishment, for example, to just continue to rain down misery on everyone? Ask them, they'll tell you. Yes, they're being lied to and what are these lies? Motivations for self greed and dog-eat-dog. THAT is what is "manipulating" them into killing themselves.
It is sad. I give you that.
@crazyeddie
Exactly. With most lies, you need two more per less actively participating parties. One side that lies, one side that does not extend even the minimal energy to think about the lie for a moment, so they can believe it.
Most lies in public life nowadays can be identified with one internet search at most, many can be identified by thinking for a moment.
@yqn @beecycling @marjolica @MikeDunnAuthor
@crazyeddie @beecycling @yacc143 @marjolica @MikeDunnAuthor
These are not the only lies they're told. They are told that free healthcare is expensive, when it's cheap. They are not told the cost of what they're incentivized to believe. I think it's more complex than you picture it.
However, the question remains, how do we make a better world?
@yqn @beecycling @yacc143 @marjolica @MikeDunnAuthor This reminds me of the cruise ship moral question. Is he liable because the ship sank due to breakage that would have been found in the maintenance review that was needed but he didn't do?
It's easy to find out. You just have to care enough to. If you don't care enough to, accept that this puts you in a position of ignorance. Don't be all, "let them die, kick them out," because you don't know the numbers. DUH!
@yqn
Cheap is in the eye of the beholder.
Cheaper for sure. More efficient for sure.
Now how does the cheaper get delivered, but squeezing out the massive profits out of the healthcare industry that are obscene in the US.
So yes, you can expect that the parties that benefit from the current system will not exactly welcome it.
And the craziness start with the training: medicine school is six figures.
@crazyeddie @beecycling @marjolica @MikeDunnAuthor
@yqn
Difficult. On one hand we do not do guilt by association.
So the voters technically have clean hands in a legal sense.
OTOH, that's also a huge loophole. So I don't do the murder, I just vote for it, the criminals in power give themselves immunity, and then do the murders.
Abusing legal positivism like that is a bit like incomplete induction proofs: legal positivism requires a benevolent legislator of the highest ethic standards.
@crazyeddie @beecycling @marjolica @MikeDunnAuthor