Wolfshappen 🐺Dec 20, 2024
TheEvilSkeleton 🇮🇳 🏳️‍⚧️

Hmm... So, requiring a sandbox to run @usebottles is considered evil and proprietary software, but patching it to remove the donate button without updating support links is considered fine? Uh huh...

Edit: Please keep in mind that this was not a decision made by the entire openSUSE community. This is addressed to the people who authored and accepted the patch.

Update: The patch is no longer being applied.

main: Exit on non-sandboxed environments by TheEvilSkeleton · Pull Request #3583 · bottlesdevs/Bottles

Description For context: https://usebottles.com/posts/2022-06-07-an-open-letter/ and #2345 It's been 2 years, yet we've seen several cases of distributions fucking up Bottles one way or ano...

GitHub
Dec 18, 2024 at 10:08pmWeb
Show threadTheEvilSkeleton 🇮🇳 🏳️‍⚧️Dec 18, 2024
Real talk, if you're patching software to make it "work" in your distro, I suppose that's fair, but removing the donate button is on a whole new low
Show threadSander van KasteelDec 18, 2024
@TheEvilSkeleton WTF.... I expected better from SUSE.
Show threadPhil M0OFXDec 19, 2024
@me @TheEvilSkeleton I gave up expecting anything good from SuSE when one of their employees tried to forcibly take over a driver I maintain, by emailing the category maintainers of various distros to declare he was "taking over", cc'ing one of my oldest email addresses from the git log (not the current one on my website).
That guy works at RedHat now, I notice from Linkedin...
Show thread🏳️‍🌈🎃🇧🇷Luana🇧🇷🎃🏳️‍🌈Dec 19, 2024
@philpem @me @TheEvilSkeleton SUSE or openSUSE? They’re different orgs…
Show threadkawazoeDec 19, 2024
@philpem @me @TheEvilSkeleton sounds like he should work for WordPress <_<
Show threadPhil M0OFXDec 20, 2024
@kawazoe @me @TheEvilSkeleton savage, but not wrong
Show threaduncomfyDec 19, 2024
@me @TheEvilSkeleton just going to say that one individual does not represent the whole openSUSE community. key difference here is SUSE != openSUSE. :) I contribute as well as a packager and I don't actually like that donation links are removed just because.
Show thread🏳️‍🌈🎃🇧🇷Luana🇧🇷🎃🏳️‍🌈Dec 19, 2024
@uncomfyhalomacro @me @TheEvilSkeleton this
Show threadSander van KasteelDec 19, 2024
@luana @uncomfyhalomacro @TheEvilSkeleton I always assumed (wrongly as it turns out 😅) that openSUSE was somewhat of a joint effort between the community and SUSE itself and changes would eventually trickle towards SUSE Linux Enterprise.
Show thread🏳️‍🌈🎃🇧🇷Luana🇧🇷🎃🏳️‍🌈Dec 19, 2024

@uncomfyhalomacro @TheEvilSkeleton @me technically SUSE does grab stuff from openSUSE I think, but they’re legally separate institutions and have entirely separate boards and stuff

Unlike fedora, which is legally owned by red had and red hat has repeatedly refused purposes to make it a legally separate institution

Show threadcameronbosch Dec 19, 2024

@luana @uncomfyhalomacro @TheEvilSkeleton @me And now Red Hat is owned by IBM. And look how many unethical decisions they've made.

As for the removal of the donation button, seriously!? None of the developers are forcing donations! Just why do this!?

Show threadJoshua LeeDec 20, 2024
@luana @uncomfyhalomacro @TheEvilSkeleton @me umm Redhat has no ownership stake of Fedora. That's why there's no legal filings, because they've always been seperate.
Redhat is just a sponsor like anyone else that donates resources to Fedora.
Show threaduncomfyDec 22, 2024
@10leej i remembered somewhere along those lines as well. I just am more involved in openSUSE to know that it is a separate entity to SUSE itself. I read **rumours** and proposals to rename openSUSE i.e. geekos or something to avoid such confusion to new members.
Show threadGiant Pink Robots!Dec 19, 2024
@TheEvilSkeleton KDE apps all have a donate button under the Help menu and OpenSUSE doesn't remove those. I can't see how this was fueled by anything but pure spite. If they think a FOSS app doesn't even deserve to have a donate button why do they package it in the first place?
Show threadDiegovskyDec 18, 2024

@TheEvilSkeleton @usebottles Honestly what a fucking loser.

I'm very thankful for you making bottles, it is a fantastic peace of software that (as you said) does a lof of complex stuff!

As a dev, it always makes my blood boil when users do the wrong thing, break their shit and blame us for that.

Good on you for speaking up to that shit. Burnout is no joke and I'm sorry you had to endure that. Please ban that guy.

Show threadTheEvilSkeleton 🇮🇳 🏳️‍⚧️Dec 18, 2024

@diegovsky thanks ❤️

FYI, Bottles was made by @mirkobrombin. I'm just a long time contributor; I don't deserve as much credit as he does :)

Show threadDiegovskyDec 18, 2024
@TheEvilSkeleton @mirkobrombin no FOSS today is made by one individual, but by a collective of contributors. I'm my book, you're all creators of Bottles :)
Show threadAppenzeillDec 18, 2024
@TheEvilSkeleton @usebottles I feel they should stop using the project name once you start adding patches the developers never intended. Especially if they remove things like a donation button. It no longer follows the vision of the project, just make it a soft fork with a different name.
Show threadadhamiDec 18, 2024
@TheEvilSkeleton @usebottles is it time to use trademark rules? (the software is free, but the name is trademarked and you can't release different (without donate button) software without changing the name and logo)
Show threadAlonely0 🦀 🇪🇺Dec 19, 2024
@adhami @TheEvilSkeleton @usebottles The GPL v3 allows a trademark policy, but as it is considered a "supplemented term"/amendment, unless they had it already in place, they probably can't do much about it. There's very few licenses that seriously take into account trademarks when distributing the software, and one of the reasons why I really like the MPL is because it does. I'm not a lawyer tho, and even then, this is so jurisdiction-dependant that it's not even funny.
Show threadGeopJrDec 18, 2024
@TheEvilSkeleton wtf
Show threadHojjat Dec 19, 2024

@TheEvilSkeleton

Just noticed that you have a draft PR to do the same: https://github.com/bottlesdevs/Bottles/pull/3597

Unless, they removed all the donate buttons or something?

Revert "feat: add donate button" by TheEvilSkeleton · Pull Request #3597 · bottlesdevs/Bottles

This reverts commit b90c9b8. Description There's already a donate button in the about dialog, which is the appropriate and non-distracting place. It's best not to distract users with pretty...

GitHub
Show threadTheEvilSkeleton 🇮🇳 🏳️‍⚧️Dec 19, 2024
@hojjat it's clear to me that they did it in bad faith by calling their patch "dont-support.patch". I left the MR open accidentally, so thanks for reminding me :)
Show threaddoingusDec 19, 2024
what the fuck!? why would they even do that!??!? removing the sandbox check is one thing... but removing the donate button!?!?
Show threadTrafotinDec 19, 2024
I get losers like this in YouTube comments all the time.
Show threadBrage FuglsethDec 19, 2024
@TheEvilSkeleton @usebottles WTF?? This is absolutely unhinged. Is this accepted behavior in the OpenSUSE community, or would it help to let more people within it know about this?
Show threadTheEvilSkeleton 🇮🇳 🏳️‍⚧️Dec 19, 2024
@bragefuglseth no clue, but they were pinged on this post: https://social.treehouse.systems/@zoeyTheWitch/113676156107202476
Zoey Ahmed (@[email protected])

The number of distros whose packagers seem to hate upstream developers grows every day - first there was Fedora breaking @[email protected] over and over again, and now Opensuse straight up removes the donate button for no fucking reason? How is this anything but unethical? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFa6d11JWro https://build.opensuse.org/package/show/openSUSE:Factory/Bottles @[email protected] @[email protected] this is completely unacceptable. Do better.

Treehouse Mastodon
Show threadMOVED TO @[email protected]Dec 19, 2024
@TheEvilSkeleton @usebottles ???? this is so weirdly petty
Show threadnokyanDec 19, 2024
@TheEvilSkeleton @usebottles Wow, that's incredibly scummy
Show threadIBBoardDec 19, 2024
@TheEvilSkeleton @usebottles They think it's TiVo-isation, don't they? Because they're acting like it's TiVo-isation when they clearly don't understand what TiVo-isation was 🙄
Show threadHikariDec 19, 2024
@TheEvilSkeleton @usebottles
Have they given any reason yet? Seems pretty weird coming from their side..
Show threadEskueroDec 19, 2024
@TheEvilSkeleton @usebottles That's quite embarrassing of them, looks like a patch made out of spite.
Show threadCleo Menezes Jr. 🌵Dec 19, 2024

@TheEvilSkeleton @usebottles This is evil and bad character. With no purpose other than seeking revenge.

Suse has fallen in my estimation

Show threadTheEvilSkeleton 🇮🇳 🏳️‍⚧️Dec 19, 2024
@CleoMenezesJr please do keep this in mind: https://fosstodon.org/@uncomfyhalomacro/113678495902619220
uncomfy (@[email protected])

@[email protected] @[email protected] just going to say that one individual does not represent the whole openSUSE community. key difference here is SUSE != openSUSE. :) I contribute as well as a packager and I don't actually like that donation links are removed just because.

Fosstodon
Show threadBjörnDec 19, 2024
@TheEvilSkeleton @usebottles As much as I agree or not agree on this issue ranting here doesn't get us anywhere.
To me it does read like retaliation. You add an error that breaks the application outside of Flatpak then I remove the donation button.
The whole situation does read like jumping from one thing to another to be in the end at something which doesn't have anything to do with the topic.
Show threadBjörnDec 19, 2024
@TheEvilSkeleton @usebottles Yes SUSE and openSUSE have some things to do with each other. One contributes to the other but in this context the situation does not reflect on any of the organizations involved but on the packager and the upstream. If there's an issue open a bug in the Bugzilla like everyone can do but ranting, foaming and raging here is just wasted time and energy. If there's no bug about this it might as well never have happened at all is the point I'm making.
Show threadTheEvilSkeleton 🇮🇳 🏳️‍⚧️Dec 19, 2024

@thaodan

> on this issue ranting here doesn't get us anywhere.

Apparently, neither does writing an article about it, so as far as I'm aware: upstream opinions go straight to /dev/null. I did what I believe to be the best by taking it more openly and publicly and raising awareness.

> You add an error that breaks the application outside of Flatpak then I remove the donation button.

You are severely understating what you did. All I did was to make you require a few liner patch and hurt your ego, and your response to that was to remove a source of income. That said, that's a pretty good indicator to me that distro packagers are prone to have no feelings and respect towards upstream developers,[1] which I'm now convinced that we're doing the right thing (when I was previously unsure).

> One contributes to the other but in this context the situation does not reflect on any of the organizations involved but on the packager and the upstream

Don't put words in my mouth. I haven't mentioned either organizations for these issues.[2]

[1]: not everybody, of course

[2]: I do blame the people who enforce the decisions in openSUSE, Fedora, etc. for allowing distro maintainers to abuse their status

Show threadBjörnDec 19, 2024
@TheEvilSkeleton Why do you say you? Am I the packager? I haven't put words in your mouth. I was merely summarizing the situation. I choose to reply to your comment since it seemed like it was the top comment. From what I see neither upstream nor downstream are the ones who should receive a badge for their good communication.
Show threadTheEvilSkeleton 🇮🇳 🏳️‍⚧️Dec 19, 2024

@thaodan oh I see, my apologies. For reference:

> You add an error that breaks the application outside of Flatpak then I remove the donation button.

I interpreted it as a personal "You" and "I" (rather than impersonal), so I thought you were the packager who decided this. Sorry again 😅

Show threadBjörnDec 19, 2024
@TheEvilSkeleton The I was written as I in my opinion about this. The you regarding the sandbox exit patch was direct at you but not the rest. Anyway np.
Show threadBjörnDec 19, 2024
@TheEvilSkeleton I created a request to remove the patch to remove the donation button. There also had been a request 5 hours earlier.
https://build.opensuse.org/requests/1232122
https://build.opensuse.org/requests/1232626
Show threadTheEvilSkeleton 🇮🇳 🏳️‍⚧️Dec 19, 2024

@thaodan thank you, you're really kind :)

And I once again apologize about before...

Show threadBjörnDec 19, 2024
@TheEvilSkeleton No problem. Just next time reach out at the project directly or ping some of the contributors.
Now lets all calm down and spend our time more productive (:
Show threadBjörnDec 20, 2024
@TheEvilSkeleton The request has been merged, the patch has been removed.
Show threadBjörnDec 19, 2024
@TheEvilSkeleton All you did was to add patch that could be reverted? I don't think the amount of lines matter on the impact of the patch.
The patch was not just a warning during build but a fatal error when the application is started.
I don't think this way of communication of trying to settle this under public pressure doesn't get anyone anywhere except that it does trigger more public
outrage.
Show threadBjörnDec 19, 2024
@TheEvilSkeleton This whole topic went out of hand, it isn't anymore about logic or to fix a specific problem but to attack each other. Really why did you not try to create a bug
in the openSUSE Bugzilla?
Show threadTheEvilSkeleton 🇮🇳 🏳️‍⚧️Dec 19, 2024
@thaodan why should I? I as an upstream shouldn't be running after downstream maintainers
Show threadPhilip WithnallDec 19, 2024

@TheEvilSkeleton @thaodan Sure, downstreams should take heed of upstream’s requests for how to package their software. Upstreams generally know better about how it’s meant to work.

People make mistakes. Sometimes people make malicious changes.

If you spot a problem with a downstream, the only way that problem is ultimately going to be fixed is through that downstream’s issue tracker and CI, as that’s their change process.

(cont)

Show threadPhilip WithnallDec 19, 2024

@TheEvilSkeleton @thaodan

So you have a choice between (A) posting about it on social media, or (B) filing an issue (or MR) on their issue tracker.

If the change is a mistake, (B) will hopefully quickly lead to a happy resolution.

If the change is deliberate, (B) potentially won’t lead to a quick resolution, but at least the right people will be talking about it in the right venue.

(cont)

Show threadPhilip WithnallDec 19, 2024

@TheEvilSkeleton @thaodan

In both cases, (A) will probably just lead to people getting enraged…and not in the right venue to actually change code. So the discussion in the issue tracker is still needed later anyway, but now with an audience of shit-stirrers and with participants who are emotionally backed into a corner.

---

Sorry to be on a soapbox, and sorry for teaching grandmother how to suck eggs, but if this advice helps someone else avoid an internet explosion in future, I’ll be happy.

Show threadBjörnDec 20, 2024
@pwithnall @TheEvilSkeleton I agree with of your points. What I want to add is that downstream distributors often know more about the packing and/or maintenance aspect of the software than the upstream since it's their main job and in the long they are the ones that maintain a specific version these days. I don't say the upstream doesn't know anything but distribution is usually not something that they have to attend to much. Which also means the packager should know to engage with upstream..
Show threadAdrian VovkDec 19, 2024
@TheEvilSkeleton @usebottles Wow this is very ugly from openSUSE's side. I understand it's a single contributor that did this, but it reflects badly on the whole project. I hope that the other community members take the actions they can to remediate the situation, i.e. fork and rename the project, or force the maintainer to revert the patches, or take over maintenance of the package, or simply drop the package and respect the wishes of upstream. The community isn't powerless here
Show threadmirkobrombinDec 19, 2024
@TheEvilSkeleton @usebottles what the actual letter F 💀
Show threadkawazoeDec 19, 2024
@TheEvilSkeleton @usebottles "The only way to achieve the goal of this PR is changing license to proprietary" is such an absolutist statement. This is like people who refuse anything less than perfectly typed code with guards on every single function. Mitigating risk doesn't mean absolutely preventing it. If your goal is to improve the experience for the majority of your target audience, that PR did its job. That reaction is incredibly childish.
Show threadBuzzleDec 20, 2024

@TheEvilSkeleton @usebottles If this is the case I actually have to wonder if they prefer “The Windows Approach”

aka. Allow your software to run, but plaster it EVERYWHERE with “You are running in an unsupported environment. Do not report any bugs”

Show threadendolexiDec 20, 2024
@TheEvilSkeleton @usebottles I'm really not an expert but to me it just seems more consistent to run something that provides stable sandboxed environments in a sandbox...? :D
Anyway, will donate. @usebottles was and is key for my whole Linux journey so far, and I have had zero issues with flatpak. Thank you for all your work!!
Show threadusebottlesDec 20, 2024
@endolexis @TheEvilSkeleton 💓