My Experience With Algorithm Extremism:

So, most of us have been through this. I needed to buy a rug, so, I searched a few websites, and purchased what I needed. Now over a week later, I'm still getting ads for rugs. You bought a rug, DON'T YOU WANT A DOZEN MORE!

This is mostly an annoyance, an Algorithm missing it's mark, but what if this also applied to ideas? Let me tell you another story:

If you follow me, you probably already know I'm a pretty ardent feminist. Occasionally, I will peruse other websites, and social media (not X, ffs get off X) that use Algorithms. I had liked a few feminist posts, so the Algorithm said she likes these let's give her more, which was nice, at first. I started noticing they were getting more extreme, less women deserve equality, and moving more into Fuck all men, I hope they die, territory. Not a fan of that, but I figured it's a one off no big deal. Within a few days it had moved into full TERF territory. It took several weeks of me aggressively blocking and reporting every post I saw for it to disappear from my Timeline.

Now imagine if you're a young man who searches or asks on social media, Why won't women date me?, think about how quickly they could get pulled into a world of lies and extremism. Imagine asking any question about a group of marginalized people. This is why places like Mastodon will become more and more essential, and why teaching children critical thinking skills is paramount.

@RickiTarr yes, it is the problem, you search, but it then assumes that is what you want for life.... I mean I still get the ads for penis shrinkers.....
@RickiTarr
Fakebook is even worse than X-Crement, if you can believe it. Far right groups have successfully gamed the algorithm there (Cambridge Analytica is the most high profile example, and that was EIGHT YEARS AGO) to brainwash people into thinking complete and utter bullshit. I've tried to get friends and contemporaries off of there but they're too hopelessly dependent on the Matrix. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@drakenblackknight I believe it, I don't know how many times my Mum showed me something from Facebook, and I was like Mom that's obviously a lie. Had to convince her that she needed to get a Covid shot and that they weren't putting a tracker under her skin, that was the mark of the beast.

@RickiTarr
My father was falling for the gift card scam on there. Swore up and down he, a retiree with health problems, was talking to multibillionaire country singer Carrie Underwood. Who I proved was happily married with children. But apparently it's not absolute proof, and it's her picture on the profile.

Since he wouldn't listen I just loaded a NextDNS profile on his phone and blocked everything that came up in the logs.

@drakenblackknight My Mom gave thousands of dollars to scammers, I can relate.
@drakenblackknight @RickiTarr I have a family member who gave her daughter's entire inheritance to her church. Jesus needs your money!
@charles @drakenblackknight @RickiTarr I'm sure the millionaire preacher appreciated the bonus!!!

@drakenblackknight @charles @RickiTarr

Oof, another one suckered by the cults 😬

But also: “her daughter’s entire inheritance?” Along with racialized prejudice, *that* idea is one of the roots of so much of today’s inequality.

@RickiTarr @drakenblackknight
I've managed to keep my parents off it, as far as I know
@drakenblackknight @RickiTarr My sister's boyfriend will sometimes come out with some cock and bullshit and we'll be like you read that on Facebook didn't you. Guaranteed he always had.

@drakenblackknight @RickiTarr

It is really sad that our lives are so unsatisfying that manipulative corporate-controlled social media is addictive. What might we do to change that? Make actual life more interesting and satisfying than online distractions?

@BrambleBearGrrrauwling @RickiTarr
Put a DNS filter on every modem that blocks algorithm-driven surveillance media. 😉
@RickiTarr was shopping with wife in IKEA. Happened to say all the names make me want to talk like the muppets Swedish Chef. Didn’t mention this to a living soul. Guess what came up on my Facebook feed?
@philgood @RickiTarr
I once silently bought a candy bar with cash and immediately started getting a lot of ads for that exact candy bar. I don't know how my phone did it, camera maybe?

@derekdahlsad @philgood @RickiTarr "is this phone discoverable"

They know where we are because we are dumb. If the pager bombing didn't really fuck with us, well, I'm not sure what to make of it honestly...

@wellidntdiscute @derekdahlsad @RickiTarr but why did my feed show the Swedish Chef, when all I’d done is mention it to my wife? Crazy.

@philgood @RickiTarr

I rarely shop in large stores these days, but if I do I am definitely going to use this as an experiment. I want to see if they're recording / monitoring in-store.

I'll also turn my phone off well before arriving, so that it can't triangulate a location and influence the results.

@RickiTarr I made the mistake to engage w/ an ad on Facebook for a thing I already own. Now that's the primary thing I'm seeing in my feed. Ugh.

@anca @RickiTarr I used to get ads for visiting London. While, of course, I was living in London.

I'm not sure how the algos pick things but I try and report every racist, sexist, misogynistic post or ad I see because I never want to see them

@RickiTarr well said. The biggest problem with most algorithms is not that it learns what I consume and what I like. That’s usually ok and somewhat useful even if a bit creepy too in many ways.

The bigger issue is how it starts slowly changing what I actually THINK that I like and want to consume. It’s not been talked about enough imo, since no one is really immune to that type of manipulation no matter what they might claim because the change happens with such small increments you’ll actually come out thinking that you’ve just “had your eyes opened for the first time” or “did your own research” or “grown as a person”. You’ll start thinking they’re all your own ideas while the people who own the algorithm have been playing you for a fool. Hell, that sort of happened to me too at one point (though I didn’t become a right wing nut, quite the opposite actually).

I’ve last heard any major discussion around the topic when Facebook was still the social media site that was on the rise. But even then most of those voices that warned about this were dismissed as conspiracy theorists and overreacting doomsayers.

Social media with an algorithm is just a tool to radicalize and sell useless crap in the process. And it’s very fucking effective, unfortunately.

@taxet YES, when people say, I did my own research, this is exactly what they mean!

@RickiTarr it’s really scary stuff too! Once someone is down that rabbit hole it’s near impossible to convince them to look at their past changes and reflect how their often very tight relationship with social media has affected that.

Most people kinda understand how algorithms work, as in, like content A, you get more content A and maybe content B as well because some people who liked A also like B. But when it goes to the territory of how you won’t notice when suddenly they’re pushing you to also view content C that is very aggressive and extreme, because you might at first scoff at it a couple of times but with enough time you cave in once, then twice, and suddenly content C is actually pretty good to you, so then you get recommended content E, etc etc taking you deeper and deeper.

It does kinda sound like something that if you don’t have either first hand experience of this effect or have some understanding of human psychology it must be false because how could *I* fall for such an obvious tactic. Kinda like with propaganda, it’s not as much about winning you over and having you cheer for the nazis with one poster and a slogan, but the constant bombardment of it all and the minute changes you won’t even notice.

Or I guess it could be simplified further; if you’ve ever found an old picture of yourself or a loved one and thought “wow look how I/they got so old, I/they look completely different now!” — that’s exactly the same effect. You see the small changes constantly so you don’t see the bigger shift. It happens to everyone and no amount of logic and critical thinking will prevent it.

As an anecdote, I’ve said to my fiancée multiple times that I’m not letting our kid anywhere near social media until they’re at the very least 16, but favorably closer to 18 if even then. She disagrees because of the whole “all the other kids will be there and our kid will be an outcast” and I’ve tried to make the same case I’m ranting about now (sorry about that btw, got carried away) but it’s such a difficult concept to explain and truly understand that it’s a struggle when the other side is still selling the whole “we’re just connecting the people and nothing else” shtick, which is much easier to see and understand even if it is only a mirage. But I’m not giving up for as long as I live. This is too serious stuff to just let go.

@taxet @RickiTarr Yup, I say my mother was 'pushed down the rabbit hole', not 'fell' or 'tripped' or 'wandered'... There was a very conscious effort to make her think this batshit insane nonsense.

@JustinDerrick

@taxet @RickiTarr
It's a design feature. The more radical one gets the more you use the platform. The most ardent extremists have very loyal users. That's what advertisers and data miners are looking for. You get hooked on the rush of anger and self righteousness. Then the endorphin rush of getting with others of like mind.

@JustinDerrick

@taxet @RickiTarr
A lot of people are just not super smart or clever. (not their fault, not a character flaw but either) many are intellectually lazy or not at all introspective.

@Asbestos @JustinDerrick @taxet @RickiTarr
I don’t think they do it for endorphins. Clicks are way easier to turn into cash.

Also, if anyone believes Trump thinks Asylum seekers *are* serial killers, and get free Visa cards, I have a bridge to sell you.

Nothing to do with validation.
It’s all transactional. 🥹

@RickiTarr @taxet It makes me want to haul out my cricket bat and bop anyone who says "I did my own research", thus guaranteeing that they've succumbed to confirmation bias, aided and abetted by an algorithm. I took two grueling years of research methodology courses and have a fair idea of what genuine research entails. Ten minutes on Google ain't it.
@taxet @RickiTarr reminds me of something B F Skinner said about advertising. I don't have a quote or reference, sorry, but he observed that advertisers were not benignly informing us about their products and services, they were actively trying to convince us we wanted their stuff. The incremental mind shift thing you mention seems like the lastest weapon in their toolbox. Ugh.

@RickiTarr I bet that if someone asked:
“Why do people say that <some racist talking point>?”

…they would receive a landslide of racist junk in their feed.

@patmadigan Right, it could start totally innocent too, Why do Muslims not like Christians?

@patmadigan @RickiTarr

yes you do, but it also gives you a huge block/ignore list.

@RickiTarr
Exactly this. The whole game is a rug pull.

Thread’s algorithm neatly popped me into the ‘trump outrage’ conveyor belt feed, cosy and protected from ‘other voices, other rooms’.

What a fool am I, thinking those shitty platforms are at all useful for getting a broad picture of…well anything.

(I was only using it to get a sense what the wider discourse was.)

@blabberlicious Right, and I still think that is kind of important to do, I don't want to be in my liberal Mastodon bubble completely, but damn, you have to guard yourself.

@RickiTarr
Yes it is, but perhaps with humans, not being puppeted by advisers for rage click.

Threads was the first casualty in my post election reshuffle.

@RickiTarr precisely why I like the fediverse. My interests are very wide and my curiosity unending. I click on and read a lot of stuff I don't like or agree with as much as I have the energy. Using corporate social media feels like that curiosity gets twisted into accusations just like being on the receiving end of an emotionally abusive relationship.

@RickiTarr

The thing about the getting-ads-for-things-I-already-bought phenomenon is that it shows just how pointless and ineffective these sites' ad-targeting algorithms really are. Cory Doctorow does a good job of debunking their "mind ray" targeting in some of his writing, but anyone who is paying attention can also see right through the hype. Anyone, except I guess, gullible advertisers.

@Mikal @RickiTarr this is known about in the ad industry. Ad buyers know that it's ineffective and inefficient, but there are no alternatives.

The old "50% of your marketing spend is wasted, but you never know which 50%" adage still applies, only the wasted percentage is getting bigger.

Online ads are getting more expensive and less effective every year, but the entire industry is unable to change willingly. Everyone knows it's going to end badly but no-one can apply the brakes.

@Mikal @RickiTarr and FB, Google & TikTok openly lie about clicks.

A couple of years ago I tracked every request on a web page we ran a FB ad campaign on. The server registered about 75% of the number of requests that FB said it sent us. We raised a ticket, got no meaningful reply. Nothing we could do about it; if we wanted the traffic we had to just put up with the lies.

@RickiTarr
Oddly, I had to same problem when I tried following more Feminists. My feed turned in to a horror show of "Kill all men" and TERFs. It made it a little difficult to read anything discussing men for a while.

Now I worry about what all young people are exposed to; from guys trying to find out why they can't get a date, to young women trying to learn about Feminism. I taught my kids how to guard themselves but it seems most parents have no idea what the kids are up against today.

@RickiTarr This is *slightly* off topic, but uBlock Origin is a browser extension that will make you wish you had it two years ago. Almost no site sees it as an ad blocker, but it effectively blocks almost all ads, all this nonsense. I went to FB for the first time in a long time and saw nothing. My timeline was indeed blank. That's how bad FB has gotten, no ads, you see nothing then old man.

@RegGuy @RickiTarr

Oof that’s awful. I’ve hated that FB mostly shows me ads rather than my friends’ posts, but I had no idea it would still not show friends’s posts even if you eliminate ads. 😩

@KydiaMusic @RickiTarr Apparently. It doesn't do it all the time, but it did a few times. I don't use FB but once in a while, I found it amusing to see nothing.