silence7How can I vote for Kamala Harris if she supports Israel’s war? Here is my answer | Bernie Sanders
GrymEdmThis is persuasion done correctly. “I understand how you are feeling. Israel’s crimes and US support should be important to all of us. You aren’t wrong to feel like you do, and I sympathize. That being said, listen to why it’s important to participate.” No insults, readily apparent empathy, and a sound argument.
People have been doing exactly that since back when we were trying to somehow get Biden to win.
The message isn’t the thing. It is the speaker. And this is why celebrity endorsements matter.
Can’t wait to see this post and comments screenshotted on hexbear 🍿
Sanders is a SINO according to the tankies, and plenty of commenters have trashed him here the other times this argument has been posted.
Sanders In Name Only?
I get what you are saying, but I respectfully disagree that people have largely been this reasonable. By writing “this is how it’s done correctly, with respect and logic” I’m juxtaposing Sen. Sander’s approach vs. “vote with us or else you’re -insert insult here-” posts, comments, and memes. I’ve seen tons of attempts to dehumanize or discredit critics of Biden/Harris/Dems on Lemmy and other platforms. You are right that some have always tried to be empathetic and civil.
I agree high-profile endorsements matter. That bugs me a little bit because I think arguments should succeed or fail on their own merits and not reputation. But I know I’m a consciously “have no heroes” person because I believe everyone is fallible. I definitely have people I respect a lot, but no one that I’ll agree with all the time.
Generally speaking, people AREN’T saying “vote with us or else you’re a piece of shit” to anyone who is (good faith) complaining about Biden’s horrendous record on genocide and Kamala being unlikely to be much better. We almost always point out "Yeah… it sucks. But do you think trump will be any better? and get responses along the lines of “WELL I WON’T VOTE FOR GENOCIDE!! THAT IS MY LINE!!!”
It has nothing to do with the way the message was said and pretending otherwise is an active insult to everyone who gives a shit.
The only reason this MIGHT make a dent is because it is Bernie Sanders. The guy who opened a lot of people’s minds to the reality that there is something better than late stage capitalism and beltway liberals.
TropicalDingdongpeople AREN’T saying “vote with us or else you’re a piece of shit”
Lemmy is doing precisely this, in this very thread, and has been doing this in literally every thread where this comes up since 2023. The issue that needs to be addressed is whether or not “Trump worse” is working as a strategy. What Bernie is saying here isn’t new, and maybe he’s saying it better, or its better coming from him than other surrogates. ymmv. I would argue you’ve already captured all the votes you can get using this approach. Now what about the votes you aren’t getting with the argument “Trump worse”?
I think without a pivot on this Harris is leaving the easiest 1-3% of voters to get on the table. And they’ve been there since the last day of the convention, where Harris conveniently showed Arab-americans the exit rather than the podium. Its a small group, but its more than sufficient to be a deal breaker in this election. You can’t force them to go for Harris, and no amount of telling them they have to has changed their minds.
Going forwards, how do you get these voters to vote for Harris?
I am an AAPI. I already know no candidate gives a shit about me. Hell, it says something when frigging Yang seemed palatable for like… five minutes. And with the way geopolitics is shaking up? If you thought the anti-asian hate was bad during the lockdown parts of COVID, just wait until we are in a cold war gone lukewarm against china like we are with russia.
And that is why a lot of AAPI folk kind of go right wing. They, like their parents, decide it is easier to try to ingratiate themselves wit hteh white supremacists than to show solidarity. But the rest of us? We rapidly learn that there IS no solidarity with us because we are “model minorities” and get told to shut the fuck up when more important minorities are being discriminated against.
But also? That isn’t the only issue. There are AAPI women and AAPI lgbtq+ folk and so forth. And thus, you actually look at the issues and vote in your interests even if neither party really gives a shit. Because you have more than one issue (and, even that, one party is still a lot less shitty)
So if “Well… neither is great but one is a whole lot worse in these very concrete ways” isn’t working?
You get a celebrity influencer to say it. Like Sanders.
We rapidly learn that there IS no solidarity with us because we are “model minorities” and get told to shut the fuck up when more important minorities are being discriminated against.
Its like the trolley problem exemplified. Blue-dog democrats be like “well someone needs to get crushed under the weight of this thing”.
Yes…that’s the point of the trolley problem. Someone does get crushed.
The crushing is the point, yes.
And you get to pick how much crushing happens.
And you get to pick how much crushing happens.
Which sounds like gloating from people who saw all the people tied to one set of tracks and used it as an excuse to tie that one guy to the other track.
And that is NOT how the trolley problem works. None of us tied anyone to the tracks. There’s no one else. There’s just people on the tracks, and a trolley, and a lever, and you. All of the set-up happened before you got there. You are only able to make a decision about the lever.
And that is NOT how the trolley problem works.
That’s because it’s an abstract thought experiment. Here in concrete reality, Democratic politicians are willingly selling weapons to a genocidal apartheid regime, and refuse to stop. They could untie the guy any time they want, but are super worried that the guy who tied everyone else to the other set of tracks might not like them.
Doesn’t matter. All YOU can do is pull the lever, or not. You can’t change who’s on the track. You can’t remove the trolley. You can’t untie the people or lift up the tracks. In this sense, the trolley problem is almost a 1-for-1 representation of voting (in a swing state, at least). You can pull the lever, or not. Those are your options.
Doesn’t matter.
To people who get what they want no matter the state of the lever.
I voted for Harris. I’m not going to proclaim that your genocide is the moral genocide just because you demand that I do.
So you pulled the lever. End of thought experiment.
Yay! You made it!
I’d tell you to not be condescending but you will never be anything else.
In your case, it’s because you often pretend to be dumber than you actually are, so I’m just playing along.
Condescending and abusive. Guess you can be something in addition to condescending after all.
Lemmy is doing precisely this, in this very thread, and has been doing this in literally every thread where this comes up since 2023.
The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
I’ll give one high-ish profile example that illustrates what I’m talking about: /c/politicalmemes has nearly 6k users, which is fairly big for Lemmy. In the last 6 months, the #3 top post with 1.91k upvotes is about how not voting because you feel there’s no good choice means Republicans win and not seeing that means “you have a problem”. The top comment in that post is about how people saying Biden isn’t doing enough are propagandists. The #3 top comment literally tells dissenters to “do a lot more shutting the fuck up”.
As I’ve said from the beginning: it’s not universal, but it shows up regularly enough to make me appreciate Bernie’s approach.
The meme sub. Where people intentionally try to make jokes and antagonize each other?
I believe the meme and comments accurately reflect the views of the people posting them. Perhaps I’m wrong, but the sentiments seem very genuine.
“I’ve never seen liberals act like assholes, so it must actually be the leftists who are assholes”
Eh. It started respectful, but dealing with the same tired “never genocide” canvassing of every single election thread gets old. And the people making those arguments know exactly what they’re doing.
Do you expect the opposition to fall over themselves to be respectful and accommodating while the other is not playing by the same rules?
Does that remind you of something the Dems were very heavily criticized for doing in the recent past?
The same canvassing from the same accounts, no less.
Does anybody miss Linkerbaan?
Me either.
I had honestly forgotten Linkerbaan existed. But now that you mention it, it’s been quite noticeably less toxic on Lemmy for some time. Linkerbaan’s participation was just complete bad faith. UniversalMonk, too.
There are plenty of other personalities on here who are more than willing to accuse everyone else of being “genocide-loving centrists.” So the community has lost nothing.
kintherDid they finally get banned or just quit? I never see them post shit anymore. Absolutely a propagandist and I’m surprised more people didn’t see it months ago
I hope you see your mum burned with white phosphorus, since your essentially voting for it to happen to other people. Imagine the delicate smell of the flesh of the woman you love burning while she desperetely trying to get it off her. But this shit is like napalm she cannot do anything.
That is what happens to people in the middle east. As an american, you are complicit with this shit. Your favorite genocider is complicit with this shit. I hope you gets trialed for conspiracy to commit genocide. And executed.
And that works for the retarded mods as well.
outrageousmatter @[email protected] @[email protected] HLMenckenFan 🌱 🐄🌱
Fuck you for your political censorship
Is ban dodging cutting into your paycheck, comrade…?
Probably time to go set up a new account. See you in a few.
Banned around a month ago.
I expect libs to be respectful and accommodating to the left… And come out swinging against the right… What irritates me is when the libs take the left for granted and continuously move right on issues to try and scrape more shit off Trump’s boots
I do not respect the self identified “leftists” that do nothing but make demands and then move the goalposts.
You expect libs to be respectful, yet give no respect yourself.
Check you privilege. Your single issue voting is throwing minorities and women under the bus.
I do not respect that.
You voting for the establishment is throwing foreigners under the bus. America first, am I right?
Demanding that Dems represent us if they want our vote is not disrespectful… Demanding that the left support you while spitting in their faces is disrespectful
It started respectful … I do not respect them
You’re funny.
It started respectful I do not respect them
You are throwing foreigners under the bus. You only care about women and minorities if they are american, the rest of us can get bombed with white phosphorus for all you care, scum.
Liberals are right-wingers in most of the world. They only are “left” in america.
Eh. It started respectful
It absolutely did not, because the center only respects the right.
I agree. Those anti-genocide people are very mean.
I hope you see your mum burned with white phosphorus, since your essentially voting for it to happen to other people. Imagine the delicate smell of the flesh of the woman you love burning while she desperetely trying to get it off her. But this shit is like napalm she cannot do anything.
That is what happens to people in the middle east. As an american, you are complicit with this shit. Your favorite genocider is complicit with this shit. I hope you gets trialed for conspiracy to commit genocide. And executed.
And that works for the retarded mods as well.
outrageousmatter @[email protected] @[email protected] HLMenckenFan 🌱 🐄🌱
Fuck you for your political censorship
I’ve seen threads from only hours ago where lemmygrad denizens were shitting on Sanders as far too conservative. Like… honestly, at this point, I think many people in that crowd are just leaning into being agitprop trolls for t3h lulz, or something like that. It’s deeply stupid imo, but they seem to not care.
The tankies on Lemmy are not the progressives that Sanders is speaking to.
Those progressives feel disenfranchised by Democrats and will rightly drop support for the “moderate” candidate next time there’s an election where the alternative is not a mask-off fascist. Some of them might do it this year, unfortunately. Maybe this is their first time voting, and they’re struggling with settling for the lesser evil. Maybe they’ve been doing it all their life and they’re tired of it. They’re the ones Sanders is trying to persuade.
Tankies, on the other hand, don’t actually give a fuck about their own moral arguments. They would be in Gaza murdering Palestinians with their own hands if they thought it would accelerate the collapse of the US and the rest of the western world. But why get your hands dirty when Trump can drop MOABs because of “the power” or whatever dumb shit he’s going to do. They hope Trump wins so that China and Russia will need to rescue the world from a fascist dictator in the US. They’re hoping for a new world order - like what the allies did after they defeated nazi germany.
It’s easy to confuse them around here because there are so many tankies among the well-meaning progressives getting swept up by tankie opportunism.
HuntressHimboThis is where I’m at. I’ve been open that I’m voting for Kamala, but people are literally posting that she has “no scandals” unironically, and will call you a Russian bot or a Trump supporter for disputing that. It’s absolutely unhinged, and does nothing for her election.
Lots of bandying about the term “BlueMAGA” too, which is just… so, so dumb. That’s not what this is. That’s not what anyone is saying. The only point I’ve been trying to make to those people is that if you don’t want to have a fascist takeover in the US, your one and only one option is to vote for Harris. I hate that our system works that way, but it does, and it’s not changing in a week. Pretending we’re not subject to the constraints of the electoral system we exist in is a recipe for defeat - and again, a fascist takeover.
And your one point is factually incorrect for a large majority of Americans. If you live in any number of non swings states you can safely vote against harris via a 3rd party. Dont worry the lemmings like yourself before reading this post will still give her the win.
The only place your statement would be remotely true is on swing states. And at that point I put the blame squarely on harris. 🤷 Tis gonna be a shit show and she has no one to blame but herself.
There are many shades of tankies.
The hardcore Hasan fans (and, probably Hasan himself) are generally good folk with strong leftist ideals who drink a bit too much of the kool-aid and have a tendency to be useful idiots who spew blatant pro-russian propaganda (remember the first few days of the war in Ukraine? I sure do). But when someone they know/“know” cares about them is saying something? They listen.
Hexbear and lemmygrad are full of the kind of tankies who manipulate THOSE tankies. The ones who are gleeful to spew pro-russian propaganda because it proves they are REALLY leftist… or because they are literally paid to do so.
Nah it’s just america’s center being extremely right-wing.
And this is why celebrity endorsements matter.
Good call. When your “role model” (for lack of a better term) takes a position on something, it tends to give it more credence to the target audience.
I have a great deal of respect for Bernie Sanders, so his words carry some weight with me. He is being a voice of reason.
Barnie endorsed Hillary too. Fat lot that did. My progressive friend still wrote his name in on the ballot.
Luckily my friend is done fucking around. But seems like a lot of the “leftist” vocal minority here on Lemmy want the rest of us to pay the “find out” tab for them again.
People have been doing exactly that since back when we were trying to somehow get Biden to win.
No. Centrists have been screaming that anyone who has the slightest misgivings about their genocide is a trumpist russian shill bot child. There has been no understanding whatsoever because centrists cannot fathom disliking genocide.
So they’re abstaining from any chance of making the plight of the Palestinians better because someone called them names? Can you elaborate a bit? I’m (relatively) new to this side of the “aisle”.
Do you want their votes, or do you want to feel morally superior while still supporting a genocide?
Sorry neighbor, I think you responded to me by mistake. My question was:
So they’re abstaining from any chance of making the plight of the Palestinians better because someone called them names?
I’m not the one asking for votes.
You have answered my question. Thank you.
Yeah sanders is the shit. I am fully on board with the big G now!!!
I hope you see your mum burned with white phosphorus, since your essentially voting for it to happen to other people. Imagine the delicate smell of the flesh of the woman you love burning while she desperetely trying to get it off her. But this shit is like napalm she cannot do anything.
That is what happens to people in the middle east. As an american, you are complicit with this shit. Your favorite genocider is complicit with this shit. I hope you gets trialed for conspiracy to commit genocide. And executed.