silence7How can I vote for Kamala Harris if she supports Israel’s war? Here is my answer | Bernie Sanders
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https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/oct/30/bernie-sanders-israel-gaza-harris-trump
jordanlundFinally! Not the video link! Thank you!
hohohoThat was my bad. Thank you for everything you do!
TropicalDingdongThe easiest way to get back voters for whom this was a deal breaker, is for Kamala to pivot on the issue.
The rhetorical techniques from surrogates have been out there for months. They don’t work when the candidate is out there eroding them by saying things like “nothing comes to mind”. You can be angry at these voters, you can blame them, but what obviously isn’t working is trying to move them by saying “Trump would be worse”.
The only answer here that works is a pivot from Kamala.
MegaUltraChickenThe only answer here that works is a pivot from Kamala.
That’s the only answer you want. That’s not the only answer that works.
Well its clear that the “rhetoric only” approach isn’t working and is insufficient. Bernies rhetoric here and in the video version are good. But its not any different than what we’ve been seeing, literally the entire time from other surrogates. It sums to “Trump worse”.
And its not working. It hasn’t moved the needle. Kamala has been declining in polling pretty precisely since she snubbed Muslim’s at the DNC and then a week after that doubled down on it saying that “nothing would be different” in her administration relative to Biden’s. Since then the scale and scope of Israels genocide have increased, and she’s stayed the course to a continual decline in polling. Its not “the answer I want”, its what the data have to say.
We’re a week out from the election. You’ve convinced all the voters for whom “Trump worse” is a sufficient rhetorical approach.
Now what about the voters for whom that approach is insufficient. Is your plan to leave them on the table? Because it seems to me you aren’t interested in getting their votes, and that puts the campaign in jeopardy.
There is a cohort of voters that appears to be about 5% of voters for whom “Trump worse” is an ineffective argument. If not for a pivot on the part of Harris, what is your argument then to get those voters to show up and vote for her?
I don’t know why we’re assuming that she picks up more votes than she loses by making a pivot on Israel. Not only will she lose votes from other areas of the base, that pivot will drive turnout among the GOP base. 5% means nothing if they lose 5% from Christians/Jews and turn out all the Christian crazies for the GOP.
Unfortunately I think the Harris campaign is doing the right thing with Israel right now. If other people on the left think this issue is worth losing over, I simply disagree. I don’t think there’s a good answer where everyone is happy, just one with less dead Palestinians.
why we’re assuming that she picks up more votes than she loses by making a pivot on Israel
Because thats what the data have to say. That’s why we think that.
I think the Harris campaign is doing the right thing with Israel right now. If other people on the left think this issue is worth losing over,
What you need to recognize is that this is something YOU think the election is worth losing over. YOU are the one arguing to leave a sufficient block of voters on the table by not pivoting.
HuntressHimboThis is an aspect that makes me irate. People will say that its pure electoral pragmatism to support Israel, but how is losing Michigan over it pragmatic? I have seen no convincing argument that an arms embargo would be more dangerous for her electorally than continuing to tripple down on supporting Israel. If its not taken as a given that genocide is a pragmatic approach, then it seems obvious that the choice that leads to less genocide is correct, but Harris won’t take it.
Christ, right? If anything, the data we have suggest a pivot gets her back to being a candidate that had momentum and was increasing their share of likely voters.
There is nothing pragmatic about supporting a policy which is deeply unpopular with your base. This is a turn out election. You have to turn your base out, not off.
I have seen no convincing argument that an arms embargo would be more dangerous for her electorally than continuing to tripple down on supporting Israel.
It doesn’t even have to be that! She can just make a vague statement about considering conditioning arms sales.
Because thats what the data have to say. That’s why we think that.
So what is the percentage of voters that she will lose with a pivot? Not the ones she might gain, who does she lose? And what does it do to GOP turnout estimates?
You’re completely ignoring that by changing her position, she can gain votes with one group, and lose votes with another. What you and the data you’re using haven’t done is prove that the former is greater than the latter. It seems pretty apparent to me that the army of data scientists that the Harris campaign is listening to is telling her it’s not.
This is the exact same argument that people we’re using to argue that we had to “stick with Biden” as the candidate. And it was so completely and wildly wrong, it almost cost Democrats the entire game before the clock actually started. A bunch of hand-wringing and what-ifs’. If you want to make those arguments, thats fine. Go find the data and show me there is a political cost to a pivot, because I’ve provided data to say there isn’t, and in-fact, not pivoting is costing her the election. You don’t get to use speculation or uncertainty as a form of evidence.
The evidence is on my side, not yours. If you want to support your argument, go find any kind of evidence you can, work it up, and give us an evidence backed argument to support that position.
Until then the conclusion is that Harris is leaving voters on the table with her position on Israel Gaza, because thats what the data we have says.
Go find the data and show me there is a political cost to a pivot, because I’ve provided data to say there isn’t, and in-fact, not pivoting is costing her the election.
You provided half the data and are trying to get people to draw meaningful conclusions about it, while refusing to even acknowledge you’re working with incomplete data.
I’m just confused why you think you can lay out exactly half of the equation, know that you’re not presenting the whole picture, and say with certainty that the data proves you correct.
exactly half of the equation,
Except its not. It is the whole thing, you just don’t like what it has to say.
So then how many votes do you think she loses from a pivot? How many percentage points? I fully accept that she will gain votes from a segment of the base that may not vote for her otherwise. I am not arguing that at all. I want to know about the other piece you say youve laid out. You’ve presented all the data, walk us through that piece…
The same number we lost when people said Biden voters were going to depart in droves if we swapped the nominee.
0
Goose-egg.
Nada.
Okay we’re just going to have to agree to disagree then.
Either way, let’s do what we can to push the odds further in her favor, even if you don’t think she’s going to do it herself. I’ll be out canvassing again on Saturday, lots of time to win this thing!
So then how many votes do you think she loses from a pivot?
I see one.
Because thats what the data have to say.
Gonna need a source on that, chief
Its linked above.
Sorry, I’m not finding it anywhere. Mind re-linking it?
Apologies, I was not in the thread I thought I was in. I’ll find the link, edit this comment, and @ you when I find it.
Here you go: apnorc.org/…/October-topline_Middle-East.pdf
Topline, Democrats are deeply dissatisfied with Biden/ Harris’s handling of Israel/ Gaza. Democratic voters want a pivot and aren’t getting one.
Unfortunately I think the Harris campaign is doing the right thing with Israel right now.
Gross.
You lose way more voters than you gain on the issue by resorting to all out condemnation of one of our biggest allies, unfortunate as it is
Maybe if Harris were running as a Republican.
But its not Republican votes she’s leaving on the table. Its literally registered Democrats. And Democrats put the responsibility for the state of things on the Israeli government.
Center right republicans are up for grabs here, idk if youve heard but Harris and Trump are pretty much neck and neck in every battleground state. It’s not progressive voters she’s courting nor should she
You are literally arguing she make a speculative play to turn Republicans instead of going after registered Democrats that she’s lost.
I’m highlighting this to demonstrate for posterity how patently absurd the apologist rhetoric was on this matter.
Not just to turn Republicans, but to depress the Republican vote. Speculation here, but I think it’s reasonable to bet there’s a large number of Christian Republican voters who will never vote for Harris but aren’t motivated enough to vote for Trump…unless Harris condemns Israel. If Harris gains 2% Dem votes from never-genocide lefties but Trump gets 5% votes from Israel-to-the-max Christians, she loses.
I’m just really happy you responded with this, so thank you.
Posterity, when you are looking back on this, the comment above is the kind of wack-a-doodle, baseless, hopium, purely speculative, completely devoid of evidence kind of thinking people were using to defend Kamalas’ obvious failures as a candidate.
Tactics in first past the post democracies is indeed whackadoodle, but that’s the system we live in.
I’m all about tactics, but I’m all about evidence as well. If you can provide some data, some evidence that what your saying has merit, I’m more than happy to discuss.
That’s a complicated one. I think we can agree that in general, Republicans support Israel and don’t believe that Israel bears any responsibility for their genocide in Gaza, and largely either don’t believe there’s a genocide happening or are perfectly happy that it is happening.
Here’s an article from back in July where Republican leaders (not voters) condemn Harris for expressing sympathy for Palestinian civilian deaths: factcheck.org/…/republican-rhetoric-on-harris-pos…
About 30% of Republicans want the US to pull back on ceasefire negotiations: newsweek.com/poll-democrats-republicans-divided-i…
Trump is absolutely courting Jewish Republicans: latimes.com/…/trump-harris-israel-gaza-hamas-host…
But I can’t find any specific poll numbers asking Republicans “would you be more likely to vote for Trump if Harris denounces Israel?” So I don’t have any hard data, just informed guesses.
And if she loses as a result? Then who are you going to blame? The Democrats who left her? the Republicans who didnt join her? Or harris for being so committed to genocide she lost to a literal fascist?
Keep in mind the longer she waits the more likely it is those historically democratic voters are lost due to early voting.
It’s her calculus man, not mine. The Harris campaign has decided this is the way to go, if she loses because of it then she loses because of it. I think it’s the right way to go but honestly not really any point arguing about it, we’re gonna find out real soon either way
indeed we are. but then you’ll be stuck knowing you did jack shit to stop a genocide when all you had to do was lie a little bit to make her sweat it out. maybe follow through if your state can take the hit on democratic support. instead you decided your effort was better spent arguing with me and others like me instead of getting in on the game. =)
Thank you.
Np mate. We’re all doing our part.
Sorry what exactly do you want me to do here
Understand how policy works. We dumped biden over gaza, union busting, and literally being on the down slope mentally.
Every bit of support we withhold from harris makes he campaign that much less tenuous increasing the likelihood of either: her switching positions now, or giving our congress critters more leverage over declining her terrible policies later. If she loses as a result of these efforts we’ll made secret what she’d nwed to change. Thats on her.
This is why the ‘lesser evil’ shit is nonsense. You can absolutely crater her support in safe states and still have her win. We’ve given you dunces plenty of hints the last few weeks what was up. Next time maybe try to support your arab brothers and sisters instead of shitting on them like harris has done and this would have been less stressful for you.
You’re infuriating me because you know nothing about me. You have no idea the monetary support I’ve pledged to Palestine. It’s not thousands or even hundreds but i don’t have very much and I’ve given what I can. I’ve spread the word about Palestine, Mossad, the IDF, regional complacency, debunking conspiracy theories about Hamas and the United Nations, all of it. You know nothing about me and yet because we’ve swapped a handful of words about American politics you think you do. That’s why you’re pissing me off, not because we’re disagreeing on Kamala’s campaign strategy but because you’re completely full of yourself. Fuck you
Im comfortable pissed you off. translate that anger into action to get harris to swap positions. i didnt make her back genocidal policies. if she loses its her fault. biden was tanked over gaza, union busting and mental health declines. gaza is not news for harris. she knows her position on it is a huge risk.
the only question you need to ask yourself is would you vote for harris if she committed to following the law and enforcing leahy on israel. if rhe answer is yes you should be doing the same thing ive done.
the harder this win is for harris the better. means less support shell get for her absolutely disgusting treatment of arabs and gaza. itll reduce the fear congress critters have of aipac. etc.
Centrists will do what they always do. They will interpret a win as vindication and an indicator that moving to the right works.
They will blame their left for a loss, announce that the left are unreliable voters, and use that as justification for moving to the right.
Yes thats why i dont care about their lesser evil nonsense.
You lose way more voters than you gain on the issue by resorting to all out condemnation of one of our biggest allies, unfortunate as it is
If only there were some policy between the current enthusiastic unconditional support and all out condemnation.
GrymEdmI feel you. I completely agreed until sometime in spring, when Sen. Sanders first posted an argument very similar to OP’s linked article. One of the major reasons I switched stances was environmental damage and global warming which is threatening horrible suffering for hundreds of millions at least. If for no other reason than that Trump must lose. Afterwards those who stand for ethics and proportional response can try to drag the Western leaders out of complicity with war crimes. Never stop criticizing such unethical and illegal policies, but if you’re American please vote Democrat.
Exactly. For you, that rhetoric was sufficient. But whats clear in the polling is that there is a small portion of voters for whom that is not enough. Harris needs every single possible vote she can get to pull this out. The campaign needs to offer more than just “Trump worse” if they want voters for whom that rhetoric has been demonstrated to be insufficient.
shoulderoforionthe antisemites have to be clearly and succinctly told this, you see
There are Israelis, people of Jewish descent (including Bernie Sanders) and practicing people of the Jewish faith who are vehemently against the genocide being perpetuated against innocent Palestinians.
Netanyahu is committing genocide.
This is persuasion done correctly. “I understand how you are feeling. Israel’s crimes and US support should be important to all of us. You aren’t wrong to feel like you do, and I sympathize. That being said, listen to why it’s important to participate.” No insults, readily apparent empathy, and a sound argument.
People have been doing exactly that since back when we were trying to somehow get Biden to win.
The message isn’t the thing. It is the speaker. And this is why celebrity endorsements matter.
Can’t wait to see this post and comments screenshotted on hexbear 🍿
Sanders is a SINO according to the tankies, and plenty of commenters have trashed him here the other times this argument has been posted.
Sanders In Name Only?
I get what you are saying, but I respectfully disagree that people have largely been this reasonable. By writing “this is how it’s done correctly, with respect and logic” I’m juxtaposing Sen. Sander’s approach vs. “vote with us or else you’re -insert insult here-” posts, comments, and memes. I’ve seen tons of attempts to dehumanize or discredit critics of Biden/Harris/Dems on Lemmy and other platforms. You are right that some have always tried to be empathetic and civil.
I agree high-profile endorsements matter. That bugs me a little bit because I think arguments should succeed or fail on their own merits and not reputation. But I know I’m a consciously “have no heroes” person because I believe everyone is fallible. I definitely have people I respect a lot, but no one that I’ll agree with all the time.
Generally speaking, people AREN’T saying “vote with us or else you’re a piece of shit” to anyone who is (good faith) complaining about Biden’s horrendous record on genocide and Kamala being unlikely to be much better. We almost always point out "Yeah… it sucks. But do you think trump will be any better? and get responses along the lines of “WELL I WON’T VOTE FOR GENOCIDE!! THAT IS MY LINE!!!”
It has nothing to do with the way the message was said and pretending otherwise is an active insult to everyone who gives a shit.
The only reason this MIGHT make a dent is because it is Bernie Sanders. The guy who opened a lot of people’s minds to the reality that there is something better than late stage capitalism and beltway liberals.
people AREN’T saying “vote with us or else you’re a piece of shit”
Lemmy is doing precisely this, in this very thread, and has been doing this in literally every thread where this comes up since 2023. The issue that needs to be addressed is whether or not “Trump worse” is working as a strategy. What Bernie is saying here isn’t new, and maybe he’s saying it better, or its better coming from him than other surrogates. ymmv. I would argue you’ve already captured all the votes you can get using this approach. Now what about the votes you aren’t getting with the argument “Trump worse”?
I think without a pivot on this Harris is leaving the easiest 1-3% of voters to get on the table. And they’ve been there since the last day of the convention, where Harris conveniently showed Arab-americans the exit rather than the podium. Its a small group, but its more than sufficient to be a deal breaker in this election. You can’t force them to go for Harris, and no amount of telling them they have to has changed their minds.
Going forwards, how do you get these voters to vote for Harris?
I am an AAPI. I already know no candidate gives a shit about me. Hell, it says something when frigging Yang seemed palatable for like… five minutes. And with the way geopolitics is shaking up? If you thought the anti-asian hate was bad during the lockdown parts of COVID, just wait until we are in a cold war gone lukewarm against china like we are with russia.
And that is why a lot of AAPI folk kind of go right wing. They, like their parents, decide it is easier to try to ingratiate themselves wit hteh white supremacists than to show solidarity. But the rest of us? We rapidly learn that there IS no solidarity with us because we are “model minorities” and get told to shut the fuck up when more important minorities are being discriminated against.
But also? That isn’t the only issue. There are AAPI women and AAPI lgbtq+ folk and so forth. And thus, you actually look at the issues and vote in your interests even if neither party really gives a shit. Because you have more than one issue (and, even that, one party is still a lot less shitty)
So if “Well… neither is great but one is a whole lot worse in these very concrete ways” isn’t working?
You get a celebrity influencer to say it. Like Sanders.