Fesshole 🧻Sep 21, 2024
I don't think people realise just how bad things are in The UK. My wife and I are 40. No kids. Both started with nothing but now in the top 5% of earners. We can just afford the a small 2 bedroom house, but would be homeless in a few months if we both lost our jobs.
Show threadGavinSep 21, 2024
@fesshole
things ARE bad in the UK but they really shouldn't be bad FOR YOU on your double top-5% earnings unless you've properly f'ed up somewhere.
Show threadConeSep 25, 2024
@_calmdowndear @fesshole In terms of a long read on this topic https://chelseatroy.com/2023/04/11/money-dont-buy-class-privilege/ is one I'd recommend - US but similarly (though not uniformly as bad) housing market. If both on ÂŁ80k pre-tax https://www.gov.uk/income-tax-rates then I calculate circa 46k after tax each (92k for couple). Of that 92k - 24k on a 2 bed London apartment, 5k on food, 4k for two annual London travelcards, 1.5k on energy bills. So: circa 34 of 92 can vanish on basics. So maybe 55k a year left as a couple to save?
Money doesn’t buy class…privilege

An icy wind whipped through the Chicago loop. I hid behind buildings and skittered across streets, hoping to make it home before ice overtook the edges of my lips, or the three fingers that peeked …

Chelsea Troy
Show threadGavinSep 25, 2024

@cone @fesshole I'm happy to read, but it won't counter my personal experience:

I'm the same age
I earn one salary, not two
I live in a 3 bedroom house
I have a teenager
I have decent savings (several months worth of our current lifestyle, without any cuts)
I sacrifice 50% of my salary straight into my pension to try and fund a good retirement

I personally count "living in London" as "you f'ed up" because I don't believe the London wage premium comes close to the London "property tax"

Show threadGavinSep 25, 2024

@cone @fesshole

Now, granted, my current salary is also potentially top 5%, but there's only one. And I also lived in a 3 bedroom house on my old salary which was considerably less, I just wasn't making the same level of pension contributions at that point.

Show threadConeSep 25, 2024
@_calmdowndear @fesshole your several months of savings is not being as dramatic as OP is (as you, and they, could cut to make it last longer) but is a similiar point to Chelsea Troy - that house with inflated price & mortgage is not really safe unless you have rich relatives - that you are working class & dependent on job to retain what you have - i.e. no class privilege as she says.
Show threadConeSep 25, 2024
@_calmdowndear @fesshole my point of view from seeing others I know socially is: living in London at some point was hugely helpful in terms of steady jobs & work experience with large orgs that can actually train. But also inheritances in every case I think (folks with family farms or 2nd homes kind of wealth). So as path to high earnings London or at least a big city looks like a route not an error.
Show threadGavinSep 25, 2024

@cone @fesshole perhaps earning in London is not an error. But living in London is, especially when it is apparently outside of your means.

I live in't North, and I appear to be in a much better position than the OP - so either they live in London beyond their means, or they live somewhere else beyond their means, when they COULD be living within their means. That's their choice to make, but you can't tar "the UK" as bad based on that choice. At best, London is bad, or the OP is bad.

Show threadConeSep 25, 2024
@_calmdowndear @fesshole the graph in Figure 3 here shows almost every median house after 2006 can be considered to have an inflated price/mortgage compared to say 1999 and in't North is better https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/housing/bulletins/housingaffordabilityinenglandandwales/2023 . General picture is: anywhere south of Nottingham in England became much less affordable - and even to north things often increased notably (e.g. Leeds the ratio changes 3.4 to 6.7).
But https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/regionallabourmarket/latest also has economic inactivity rate higher up north & in Wales.
Housing affordability in England and Wales - Office for National Statistics

Data on house prices and annual earnings to calculate affordability ratios for national and subnational geographies in England and Wales on an annual basis.

Show threadGavinSep 25, 2024
@cone @fesshole we’re heading into levels of economy I don’t understand fully at this point so I’ll happily cede. All I know is my personal experience as I described above, and we’re working off the assumption that OP is in London and perhaps they shouldn’t be; would they be better off with a top 15% salary outside of London? I reckon so.
Show threadConeSep 25, 2024
@_calmdowndear @fesshole re: inactivity rate in 16-64yrs old one can see from note 3 to Table 1 it is folks beside the employed & unemployed but looking for work - so stay at home spouses, the sick, early retirees etc I think would fit inactive. Key point re: inactivity - less folks with money out looking to buy a home.
Show threadConeSep 25, 2024
@_calmdowndear @fesshole I think final keypoint and one I'd echo from Chelsea Troy is this is not a case of an individual fault nor an individual solution. I don't doubt you are doing better up North on a very decent salary - what I explicitly doubt is if you look at that Figure 3 map & see all south of Nottingham affected is individuals can't just "go North" as a solution - OK for you but cannot be individual solution done en-masse. Collective action needed to create the jobs up North pre-move.
Show threadCone
@_calmdowndear @fesshole In terms of collective action - apart from rent control in South the Land Value Tax at end of this https://taxpolicy.org.uk/2024/06/09/stamp_duty_terrible_how_to_abolish/ might be good - idea is it is based on unimproved value of land so as to not deter folks from building. Wales has also used tax to incentivise selling second homes - often in areas where locals cannot buy. So various ideas for: having high salary in lower half of England actually means security; not wealth that vanishes without salary or family money
Sep 25, 2024 at 10:02pmWeb