Mastodawn

Mx. Luna Corbden 🐸Jul 13, 2024

On the topic of Property.

I like to question everything and break things down to their most basic fundamentals. This is part of my deconstruction and decolonization of society.

Lately I've been questioning the nature of "property," and made a bit of an argument based on Thomas Paine's Agrarian Justice that no one own land, but leases it from the public/government/landback and can only "own" the improvements on it.

https://defcon.social/@corbden/112452201133504194

We take for granted the definitions of these words. Now I'm asking, "What even is 'property'? What does it mean to 'own' land?"

And I've come up with the answer. And as always (like with money - see below link) it comes down to POWER not WEALTH. But I haven't yet explored the implications or what I think about it.

https://defcon.social/@corbden/111219754824612576

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#deconstruction #decolonization #AbuseCulture #QuestionEverything

Mx. Luna Corbden (@[email protected])

(I really should clock in and work now but...) I did some napkin math last night on this idea of "No one owns land but you can own the improvements." Thomas Paine used this argument for a kind of UBI, but his conclusions were flawed. His argument is that the earth is a human right, and since that ship has sailed, we tax landowners and give that as a lump sum to people when they come of age. Something like that. Given this premise, we could do something better. My quick math said that: 1. The "public" (via democratic gov) owns all land, 2. Land is taken and leased back to its current owners. Assume: Land is worth 1/3rd of the value of a property with improvements. So monthly lease is 1/3rd of what a mortgage payment would be on the property as valued today. 3. Given 1 & 2, lease revenue from all real estate in the US would be $20.7 trillion ANNUALLY... #USPol

DEF CON Social

Mx. Luna Corbden 🐸Jul 13, 2024

As a libertarian I thought property was everything. Then I learned about other ways of thinking.

People say "Property is theft," Woodie Gutherie sang:

"As I was walkin' - I saw a sign there
And that sign said "No trespassin'"
But on the other side .... it didn't say nothin!
Now that side was made for you and me!"

And then there's my idea of abolishing land as property. So what would that really mean?

Again, think about power. Everything that is human comes down to power.

Quick definitions:

Power is the ability to make decisions and take action, even over other people's choices and acts.

Empowerment is the ability to act and decide for once's self.

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#deconstruction #decolonization #AbuseCulture #QuestionEverything

Mx. Luna Corbden 🐸Jul 13, 2024

Property ownership simply means a section of land that you have power over. When I "own" this half-acre, I will have nearly full say over how it is used, balanced with my co-owner, and municipal, county, state, & federal laws.

As they say, a man's home is his castle, & at one point in Western society, this was a revolutionary concept. That a man have say over everything that happens in his home. Not the Duke or King or police. (Much we've already unpacked there about sexism, etc.)

So getting down to fundamentals:

Is there a need in our society where each person has an area that is nearly 100% their own? Not as *wealth* (geez wealth is such a distracting concept), but as a function of empowerment. When I'm here, there is little power anyone else can have over me. When you step on this soil, I have say over your actions. You are only here by my will, I can make you leave, and you can't make me do anything.

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#deconstruction #decolonization #AbuseCulture #QuestionEverything

Mx. Luna Corbden 🐸Jul 13, 2024

My frustrations with renting were about how I couldn't paint the walls the color I wanted, or add rooms, or change the landscape. Someone would sit in judgement, tell me if I could or couldn't. I didn't have control over much of my home, other than who was allowed in & what kind of decor to put up. The landlord always had power to kick me out. Terrifying!

People want to OWN property for a small piece of power. So that there's one place they can call the shots. These words like "own" again hint at wealth, which is part of it, but not the main part, because this wealth is merely an extension of the power you have over deciding who else gets to "own" it (gets power over) if you sell it (in trade for fungible units of power called "dollars"), so that then THEY can call the shots over that piece of land.

Oscar Wilde had it right. Everything comes down to power. Those who hoard power don't want you thinking like that.

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#deconstruction #decolonization #AbuseCulture #QuestionEverything

Mx. Luna Corbden 🐸Jul 13, 2024

This may be the root of libertarians centering many philosophies around property and contracts. These are both implements of power and empowerment.

And there's something to that.

But does it have to be "property" as we think of it and "owning" as we think of it?

The core benefit of "owning" "property" is to have a space you have choices over and within.

I do still like my idea of making land non-ownable but instead leasable (as a form of taxation and public control over aspects of the land that are in public interests), but giving some kind of rights to an individual over the improvements on the land, and the wealth and power/empowerment that generates.

But as always, how then do we maintain power balance outside our current construct of "property"?

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#deconstruction #decolonization #AbuseCulture #QuestionEverything

Mx. Luna Corbden 🐸Jul 13, 2024

It's nice to romanticize like Gutherie did, that it's all our land and who are you to put up a sign? And indigenous ideas of stewardship and being part of the land rather than "owning" it are compelling and worth exploring, truly a beneficial way to see the world. I've been leaning that way.

But also... there is value in the function of, "This here spot, this is my sovereign place, where I am in charge within certain limits and responsibilities to my community." In that, I think everyone maybe should have some such spot where they live. That's ultimate liberation. A place where I don't have to compromise with anyone else outside of harm prevention and reduction to those who visit and to my neighbors.

I'm not sure all of these values can be reconciled. But this is what I've been thinking about lately.

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#deconstruction #decolonization #AbuseCulture #QuestionEverything

Mx. Luna Corbden 🐸

We all understand these fundamentals on a subconscious level. This is why conservatives and libertarians are so salty about their property rights. They resent it when the government tells them what they can build or what they dump in their rivers or if they're allowed to shoot trespassers. They're terrified of someone they don't trust having control over them. They know deep down that property is about power, but I think most have not consciously examined this.

When I worked in IT, I learned that often what the customer asked me for was not what they *really* wanted or needed, so part of my job was to look past the surface and get to the root of that.

This is the root of their obsession with property rights. A place where they can be in charge. And I think that's something most of us want. But maybe "owning property" isn't the best way to get that.

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#deconstruction #decolonization #AbuseCulture #QuestionEverything

Mx. Luna Corbden 🐸Jul 13, 2024

Or maybe it is?

I still kind of like my idea that no one can own land and that we lease it from the government/public/landback but that we get some kind of rights to the improvements and the wealth/power/freedom those improvements make.

But also that the use of the land be balanced with ecological and community needs. The power dynamics here are necessary to understand to create some kind of equitable and balanced system. If the public owned all land, that's going to scare anyone who deep down just wants a place where they make the rules and decisions. That's a reasonable ask, so long as they're not impeding on other people's empowerment and rights, which includes care of the global ecosystems.

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#deconstruction #decolonization #AbuseCulture #QuestionEverything

Mx. Luna Corbden 🐸Jul 13, 2024

And then we can think of “rights” as “this is a way that you’re not allowed to exercise power over me. I am guaranteed empowerment over these areas.” This is true of inalienable rights such as free speech, but also of property rights, like water or mineral rights, rights of way, etc.

Which opens the can of worms, can something like healthcare or food be a “right”?

Libertarians say no, and it would seem from my definition above that no, those can’t be rights.

But life is considered a right (inalienable). And you can’t have life without food or health (or shelter). The fundamental need for food, health, and shelter are leveraged against people to compel them to make choices they otherwise wouldn’t, for instance, where to work. Can a person be said to be free if one is compelled to spend 50-100% of their waking life doing something they hate to produce wealth for someone they don’t like?

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#deconstruction #decolonization #AbuseCulture #QuestionEverything

Mx. Luna Corbden 🐸Jul 13, 2024

This may be why some people feel existential threat connected to their property rights. They’re forced via a need for food, health, and shelter to be in thrall to someone else 50-100% of their waking life, so they’d like to go home to a place where they’re 100% empowered. And they resent any government or leftist who wants to regulate that.

Would they feel such a sense of defensiveness over reasonable zoning, building permits, and EPA regulations if they were truly free to choose their use of that other 50-100% of their day?

Is this one of those cases where the true oppressor (the boss/billionaire class) are getting folks fired up about the lesser oppression?

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#deconstruction #decolonization #AbuseCulture #QuestionEverything

Mx. Luna Corbden 🐸2d ago

The point of unpacking these concepts is exactly the same as unpacking the cult doctrines ones has been raised with. A word like "money" or "property" are thought-terminating clichés that get us to skip over all the good questions that we might have asked in childhood but now everything is too "obvious" to revisit. We save on cognitive load that way, but everything we take for granted is really a puzzle.

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#deconstruction #decolonization #AbuseCulture #QuestionEverything

Mx. Luna Corbden 🐸2d ago

So unpacking a little further: The concept of land-property is an abstraction of a type of micro- warfare and empire put into terms that make it feel ok.

It's disturbing to me to dig this deep, because I'm a former libertarian who likes the idea of property, a type of order within freedom, where I am theoretically able to earn a square of land that is mine, where I are nearly completely free to do with it and on it whatever I like.

But zoom out. Consider the rent economy. Not scary when it's just an elderly couple with an extra house or a duplex with which they make supplemental money.

That becomes an empire when it becomes a sky rise. Or a corporation buying up every cheap property in a town and jacking up prices for shelter.

It is land upon which they can do whatever they want and set whatever rules. Lots and lots of land. In some cases, all the land as far as the eye can see.

They are Kings of vast segments of area that they didn't (themselves) raise a sword to gain. But don't let that fool you into thinking it wasn't conquest. They spent their units of power (money), that when traced back far enough, the methods of its "earning" were, in fact, quite violent in nature. In order to gain enough units of power to buy a kingdom, violence was surely done. Freedoms were surely taken.

And once they have purchased enough land, they are effectively lords, and no one has any freedom but they.

Viewed through this lens, property is antithetical to core libertarian values. Property is a form of tyranny and empire. An instrument of theft and inherently a fraud.

I hate it. But that's what's under the curtain.

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#deconstruction #decolonization #AbuseCulture #QuestionEverything

Mx. Luna Corbden 🐸2d ago

Like money, property becomes an abstraction layer for the language of power, and isn't much different from fuedalism of old. "Property" is merely a justification for why the lord gets to tell everyone forced onto it what to do.

But at least then, serfs could keep a much larger portion of their labor than we do. They had clean air to breathe and wholesome food they knew where it came from and what was in it.

Moreover, at least then lords had a sacred duty to protect those who lived on their land.

We've got all the noblesse without the oblige.

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#deconstruction #decolonization #AbuseCulture #QuestionEverything

Mx. Luna Corbden 🐸2d ago

I think people SHOULD have a place where what they say goes (within limits). Where we live should be sacred space, where we can say who gets to be here, where we put our personal things that are protected from theft or destruction, where we can sleep soundly. Where we can build and rearrange and paint and plant and do whatever we want to fit our needs and aesthetics.

In our society, this freedom or right is attached to the concept of property. Which is why some people get very upset at the idea of taking that away. Every man needs his castle, but it isn't the castle he wants so much as a little place to rule.

Freedom ultimately is that, right? A sovereign, self-ruled little place. Power distributed equally amongst everyone, each person inside their own place of sovereign boundaryship.

But we've tied that right to ownership of land.

So they can just buy that right up.

And now where have your rights gone?

The slogan is wrong. Property isn't "theft." It's a separation of you from you liberty. It's an alienation of every person from our inherent rights.

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#deconstruction #decolonization #AbuseCulture #QuestionEverything

Mx. Luna Corbden 🐸2d ago

We look back at the founders and say haha can you believe they bought the idea that only land-owners should vote??

Well today we think that only land-owners should have full rights to security, sovereignty, building design, and the ability to set boundaries in the place they sleep.

It's terrifying!

We're not just in an increasing rent economy. We're in a society where our core rights come down to rent.

Will you have enough money (units of power) to rent your rights back once the monopolies really kick in?

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#deconstruction #decolonization #AbuseCulture #QuestionEverything

Mx. Luna Corbden 🐸2d ago

There can be no such thing as equal rights when any of those rights include "the right to gain power over others."

That's what property rights include in our current society.

#deconstruction #decolonization #AbuseCulture #QuestionEverything

David Arnold 2d ago

@corbden ultimately, we don’t exist independently. Our every action impacts everyone, everything else in greater or lesser ways. The desire to own anything necessarily infringes everyone else’s rights. Simply existing is to demand oxygen and food and space from a finite supply.

Mx. Luna Corbden 🐸2d ago

@__d That seems fairly doomer. So everyone should suicide I guess?

David Arnold 2d ago

@corbden personally, acknowledging and accepting this leads me to embrace a collective, rather than individualist, approach to life. I have a cost, but I can bring a benefit too.

Mx. Luna Corbden 🐸2d ago

@__d I'm generally a collectivist these days, but I feel that people still need a strong inner core before they can have what they need to give to others. I say this as someone who has been drained dry by vampires who think some in the community need to give their all until they're a husk. That's an unhealthy kind of collectivism that I push back against.

I feel that it's very important that individuals be protected and to have certain boundaries in place that are protected by the community. My body isn't anybody else's and neither are my personal choices that affect only myself. That's what I mean by "rights." I have a right to live, speak, have privacy, and a right for others to not force me to do things I don't want to do.

Deconstructing the concept of property is a way of preserving the necessary core of those concepts as we move towards a more healthy form of community. It's not a question of "should property be abolished?" What does that even mean? What would we lose if we did that which maybe shouldn't be lost? What SHOULD be lost? Why do most people feel threatened by that idea? What are they really afraid of losing, and is there another, more prosocial way for them to have that?

That's what I'm getting at.

Do you have a private space you can go to be alone? Do you think people should have that? Do you favorite possessions that you would like to keep, not because they're worth a lot but because you just like them or are used to them? Do you want others using your toothbrush or barging in on you when you're sleeping or showering? Should you or anyone lose those securities and freedoms for the sake of everyone else?

anilmc Jul 13, 2024

good musings.

I want to introduce the concept of sanctuary, refuge - contrasted with sovereignty/dominion.

I think the drive for a place of one's inviolable own is from this need for sanctum, for safety, and not so much from need for executive authority over a geographic territory.

You can see this in geopol, how threats to safety are broadly mobilising but arbitrary appeals to sovereignty only tickle the patriotic.

Mx. Luna Corbden 🐸Jul 13, 2024

@anilmc Yes, the word sanctuary did arise in my mind. And I think safety is a core, usually unconscious driver to human behavior and opinion. This is a really good angle to consider, and is safety really what we crave? and if we had that guaranteed, would we crave freedom or empowerment as much? I think we probably would, but maybe that can take different forms.

There’s quite a lot of intersectionality that I’m intentionally leaving out to simplify the thought experiment, but for instance, even in a family-owned home, traditionally the father has called the shots, which leaves the wife and children still without “property” in this sense of empowerment. And of course if I think one person should have a right to a place of empowerment/sanctuary, I think everyone should, and the traditional construct of property doesn’t have a good track record of providing that.

One of the benefits of breaking it down to fundamentals is that these flaws and inconsistencies become apparent.

anilmc Jul 13, 2024

This is why sanctuary is more salient for me - sole dominion (and the aloneness it entails) often feels less safe than a sanctuary shared. In fact, company might be a core need for a fulfilled life like shelter, food or warmth. Ostracisation in premodern societies was a death sentence, and internet pile ons or being deplatformed invoke many aspects we previously associated with execution. Older men who drift away from their peers die much younger, etc.

anilmc Jul 13, 2024

A related need is that for self detemination (or a sense of genuine agency, conceding that all humans are at least partially determined before anything like a coherent self is around to drive). Sanctuary is inclusive of this, without being exclusive of others, unlike sovereignty, and might even imply autonomy - after all, what is the sanctum but the safe place of the self? Freedom derives from sanctuary, from feeling safe to be privately before being (hetero disculpa) out.

Mx. Luna Corbden 🐸Jul 13, 2024

@anilmc I like the way you think, and the way you relate these basic concepts. A sense of safety is required for both a feeling of agency and the actual state of having agency. If one makes a choice under threat or pain, it is coerced and not a true choice. These two concepts are inherently intertwined, at least for embodied beings.

Riley Jul 14, 2024

@corbden I've been working my way through Kropotkin's "The Conquest of Bread" so this has been top of mind for me. The libertarian-socialist (tho in this case probably more anarcho-communist) solution is to eliminate ability to profit off of land. You can "possess", but it's in the sense that you can do what you need, with the common good in mind, but it is not your "property". You should take care of it, you should allow others use if they have need, etc. 1/2

Riley Jul 14, 2024

@corbden if there is no profit or price difference to "buy" the land or property, all property has a basic cost no matter where, so people should only need to pay for what they need. Need based on family size, career, whatever. Whether that means "ownership" or some sort of "lease" via government doesn't really matter if all land is affordable.

I feel like a lot of the libertarian pearl clutching wrt property is fear of loss. But if the cost is small, the fear shouldn't be so great

Riley Jul 14, 2024

@corbden I'm assuming based on the "property is theft" mention this is along the lines of your thread here anyway.

I know for me, the biggest shift was rewiring how I viewed property. But i also have always abhorred power as a concept. I don't want to hold power over someone. Especially not via money or property. But that's a hard thing for people when we are so surrounded by the idea that property is EVERYTHING.

Mx. Luna Corbden 🐸Jul 14, 2024

@rileytaylor Yeah, power vs empowerment, power over someone else vs power over yourself. I do think there are ways in which we inevitably have to have power of some sort over others, in the sense that we will make decisions for them or that affect them. And I believe that there are many situations in which some sort of hierarchy is necessary or even desirable. Diversity implies that even the most equitable society will leave some people unhappy with the way things are decided at least sometimes. Property (or a concept like it) gives people a place where most of the decisions are theirs alone.

Riley Jul 14, 2024

@corbden Considering the issue with possessing a space that is someone's own to do with and renting... Its really common with commercial renting (in US) to basically be allowed to do whatever you want with the space. build a ton of rooms, tear down all the interior walls, decorate however, etc. (with some negotiating and no-go options ofc)

I have to wonder why there is such a stark difference between the two.

Mx. Luna Corbden 🐸Jul 15, 2024

@rileytaylor Oh wow that’s an interesting point. I’ve never thought about that before. An office is basically a condo without the commitment.

sleepfreeparent Jul 13, 2024

@corbden people had all of this and more, long before the concept of private property was invented to exclude them from it

Mx. Luna Corbden 🐸Jul 13, 2024

@sleepfreeparent Do you have more details on how that worked? I often wonder about places where things worked differently before Western takeover, especially the Cayuse, Walla Walla, and Umatilla tribes that occupied this land before I did, but I just haven’t been able to dig as deeply as I’ve wanted.