Patricia Aas
I started reading “The Unaccountability Machine” which is actually quite interesting. I don’t know what I think about the subject matter, but it touches on a lot of things I’ve thought about over the years. It seems to describe a different economic model, not capitalism and not communism, but a systems theory field called “Cybernetics”. For some reason it’s like I asked someone: explain economics to me like I’m a programmer. And now my brain is slowly reworking itself to understand economics like I would understand a program. It feels very unnatural as a human having grown up in this *waves vaguely at the world* but it is the first time I am starting to feel that it makes sense. It’s still completely wrong, of course. I fundamentally disagree with some extremely axiomic parts of capitalism, but I suddenly might not end up with a parse error.
https://social.vivaldi.net/@Patricia/112626658364328553
Patricia Aas (@[email protected])

Attached: 1 image @[email protected] oh well, I needed a new book 🤣🤓

Vivaldi Social
Jun 17, 2024 at 10:44pmWeb
Show threadPatricia AasJun 17, 2024
Thanks to @vaurora for pointing me in this direction 🤓
Show threadPatricia AasJun 17, 2024
I guess everyone probably needs to get stuff explained in a way that ties in with the things they already know. I’m sure this probably is a whole field in pedagogy.
Show threadPatricia AasJun 18, 2024
I have been sidetracked into what is a side quest in the book. A strange electronic system set up in Chile under Allende before the dictatorship. I was looking on Wikipedia and found this podcast: https://the-santiago-boys.com/ imagine grafana dashboards and data driven decisions meets socialism and… Star Trek aesthetics.
The Santiago Boys

This is a podcast about a continent that dared to dream big - and challenge the power of Big Tech before Big Tech was a thing.

The Santiago Boys
Show threadPatricia AasJun 18, 2024
This thing is wild “Project Cybersyn”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Cybersyn
Project Cybersyn - Wikipedia

Show threadPatricia AasJun 18, 2024
Also, even if I kind of grew up in this, I hadn’t really thought about it for years. But one of the big things Latin America saw in this period were dictatorships brought about by large international corporations (often backed by the US) that preferred a “strong leader” so that they could extract the country’s resources in peace without being bothered by the pesky people who lived there. Ref the expression Banana Republic.
Show threadPatricia AasJun 18, 2024
This scholarship might be progressively more relevant for the rest of the world going forward.
Show threadPatricia AasJun 18, 2024
The US had their hand in pretty much every single military dictatorship in Latin America, this included money (remember Iran-Contras?), military training and supplies (everything to equip your friendly military dictatorship) and running disinformation campaigns.
Show threadPatricia AasJun 18, 2024
And the US is still doing this BS apparently: https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-covid-propaganda/
Show threadPatricia AasJun 18, 2024
Finished first read, but now I need to reread the beginning. Current impression is that I find the arguments individually interesting. I’m not sure the underlying logical argument they are a part of is logical or if the conclusion is a logical result. But I still found the book very interesting. Especially the first 3/4ths. The basic logical argument he seems to present is that current capitalism has constructed a mechanism that forces managers of publicly traded companies to serve shortterm goals. And that this makes it impossible for companies to adapt sufficiently to accommodate looming crises like climate change. When leadership has to deliver on quarterly numbers they cannot steer according to any other metrics. I think his idea is that if we can somehow break that mechanism then… and this part I’m unclear on and I’m not sure I find it very interesting either.
Basically I don’t know how I feel about the broader logical argument, but I found the discussion to get there very interesting.
Show threadPatricia AasJun 18, 2024
He also seems to think that the international tendency to elect populist wannabe dictators is a cry for help. That seems a bit… infantilizing?
Show threadPatricia AasJun 19, 2024
I think I need to have lunch with an economist. I have questions.
Show threadPatricia AasJun 19, 2024
I think the people for which Cybernetics will make the most sense are people who work in vulnerability research and exploit development. This systems theory fits very well with a lot of their findings and methodology.
Show threadPatricia AasJun 19, 2024
Possibly also folks working in machine learning
Show threadPatricia AasJun 19, 2024
And people in distributed systems tbh
Show threadPatricia AasJun 19, 2024
Basically any field where you have acknowledged that the systems you are concerned with are complex and might never be fully understood, but where you still have stuff to do and you work with the knowledge that these systems are adaptive and might have emergent behavior. And that poking in one place might have unknown consequences. Where the primary tools are around monitoring and feedback to detect and diagnose new behaviors. And to manipulate these complex networks of stuff to do the thing you want, all the while knowing that it might very well also do something completely different and probably not desired.
Show threadPatricia AasJun 19, 2024
Oh shit, this fits with medicine too, doesn’t it, @siljelb ?
Show threadPatricia AasJun 19, 2024
I guess the fundamental difference from modeling is that even though you might try on occasion to reduce things to a formal model and reason about things in that formal model, you don’t really believe in it. You know the real thing is “alive” and that the information that is removed to model whatever process you are concerned with, will contain data that is essential and even more importantly: you know that there is essential data that has been removed that you don’t even know is essential.
Show threadPatricia AasJun 19, 2024
As a programmer, it’s funny to read about people believing in their models. It’s a very junior developer thing to do. Senior folks don’t. They do their best and then they observe. And even more interestingly: if they don’t see unintended consequences of significant changes, they become suspicious.
Show threadPatricia AasJun 19, 2024
The more I think about this, the more I need an economist to tell me this isn’t how they actually work and what they actually believe. Because that’s just bananas. First let’s “simplify” a complex system into a formal model and then you reason in it, maybe run some simulations and then… you believe it? And this idea of believing in a “market” as some sort of entity that will not only stabilize into a state, but that that state is somehow “good”, or even “optimal”. That’s bananas. That’s a fucking religion.
Show threadPatricia AasJun 19, 2024
I’m sorry, but that’s on level with worshiping kubernetes. That’s fucking mind boggling.
Show threadRyan Castellucci (they/them) Jun 19, 2024
@Patricia heck, I'm suspicious of anything that compiles the first time
Show threadPatricia AasJun 19, 2024
@ryanc same
Show threadWernerJun 19, 2024
@Patricia Maybe now that Ælon Møsk has put Nicolai Tangen on his shitlist, you can be invited to lunch instead!
Show threadPatricia AasJun 19, 2024
@worldwidewerner lol
Show threadThree plus or minus fiveJun 18, 2024
@Patricia I dunno, I think those voters are pretty infantile,. They know things are wrong (though not what things) and want someone to make dramatic changes.
Show threadPatricia AasJun 19, 2024
@ThreeSigma perhaps, but I would’ve preferred some actual research behind such a sweeping claim
Show threadHishamJun 20, 2024
@Patricia @ThreeSigma Research on the history of fascism and populism in general tends to corroborate and expand on that idea. Mark Bray's book "Antifa" has a chapter on the history of fascism that touches on it a bit. That led me down the rabbit hole and I bought "Populismo 2.0" by Marco Revelli (in spite of my difficulties in reading Italian) -- after all, if there's one place that can tell us a lot about populism, it's the birthplace of fascism itself.
Show threadHishamJun 20, 2024
@Patricia @ThreeSigma also, seconded on the recommendation for Piketty's Capital. I'll add "The Unaccountability Machine" to my reading list, on its turn (thank you for this thread!), but from the title alone that seems to resonate with Piketty's account of the rise of middle-management in the 20th century and its effects on the overall economy.
Show threadPatricia AasJun 20, 2024
@hisham_hm @ThreeSigma I think maybe (though I haven’t read Capital yet) that they may differ on conclusions, but I’ll find out 😅
Show threadpeter sibleyJun 18, 2024
@Patricia Another fun recent US regime change project that wasn’t widely covered : https://theintercept.com/2023/08/09/imran-khan-pakistan-cypher-ukraine-russia/
Secret Pakistan Cable Documents U.S. Pressure to Remove Imran Khan

“All will be forgiven,” said a U.S. diplomat, if the no-confidence vote against Pakistan Prime Minister Imran Khan succeeds.

The Intercept
Show threadPatricia AasJun 18, 2024
@petersibley you sometimes get a feeling that the US doesn’t consider other countries as anything but it’s playthings. I don’t know anything about Pakistani politics, but there is a frightening entitlement in thinking you have the right to change the government of another country. That kind of action should never be done lightly.
Show threadpeter sibleyJun 18, 2024
@Patricia i’ve been on a bit of US coup related history binge - this sense of entitlement is very deep. I read two related books one focused on earlier history : https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/40121985-how-to-hide-an-empire and another much more cold war focused book on US coups : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jakarta_Method
How to Hide an Empire: A History of the Greater United …

A pathbreaking history of the United States' overseas p…

Goodreads
Show threadMark IngallsJun 18, 2024
@Patricia @petersibley How to Hide an Empire is awesome. I grew up on US military bases (stateside). The context it gave for the role of military infrastructure as colonization was fascinating given my upbringing.
Show threadPatricia AasJun 18, 2024
@ingalls @petersibley they don’t have it on audible here 😭
Show threadMark IngallsJun 18, 2024
@petersibley @Patricia check your local library via Libby.
Show threadPatricia AasJun 18, 2024
@ingalls @petersibley oh we have that here in Norway too https://deichman.no/vi-tilbyr/libby_0bd224e6-f01c-453b-8f7a-8f13652f270c
Libby - Deichman.no

Med appen Libby kan du enkelt låne, lese og lytte til e-bøker og e-lydbøker på engelsk, samt en del på ukrainsk, spansk, tysk, russisk, polsk og fransk. Last ned appen på telefonen eller nettbrettet ditt (iOS og Android). Lenke finner du under.

Show threadpeter sibleyJun 18, 2024
@ingalls @Patricia Before I'd read it, I hadn't thought of the military infrastructure as a specific colonial project. If you liked that book I also read a biography of a figure that shows up in every conflict in that era : https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/57693503-gangsters-of-capitalism
Gangsters of Capitalism: Smedley Butler, the Marines, a…

A groundbreaking journey tracing America’s forgotten pa…

Goodreads
Show threadMark IngallsJun 18, 2024
@Patricia @petersibley adding to my list, thank you!
Show threadPeter SommerladJun 18, 2024
@Patricia @petersibley
Russia is doing so with supporting fascist parties in Europe, esp. Germany
Show threadPatricia AasJun 18, 2024
@PeterSommerlad @petersibley and bribing politicians in the EU parliament. So maybe we need to think more defensively.
Show threadApiaryJun 17, 2024
@Patricia i usually think of cybernetics as a different way of describing capitalism.
Show threadPatricia AasJun 17, 2024
@Apiary I’m only halfway through one book lol, but it seems more… waterfall vs agile? Still in the same ballpark but with a very different methodology and aim?
Show threadPatricia AasJun 17, 2024
@Apiary and I don’t know what I think about that part. But like a friend once said when I complained that she always argued against everything I said: “People only bother to spell out their argument when they are defending it. So if I want to learn your arguments the best way to get you to tell me is for me to say you’re wrong” And so I guess, in his argument against capitalism he has to explain capitalism seen from this perspective. And that part is very clarifying for me.
Show threadPatricia AasJun 17, 2024
@Apiary like he had a bit about Chile and I was: ah they tried to build a monitoring system that was gathering metrics from prod and visualizing it and generating automatic alerts. Basically they made Grafana dashboards with telex and a real economy. Probably not a great idea, but it parses 😂
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Cybersyn
Project Cybersyn - Wikipedia

Show threadhallvorsJun 17, 2024
@Patricia and you would be absolutely right, see for example Piaget, Jerome Bruner and Benjamin Bloom who all develop theories of teaching and grapple with how to get pupils to expand and correct their understanding.
Show threadPatricia AasJun 17, 2024
@hallvors does it have a name?
Show threadhallvorsJun 17, 2024
@Patricia nah, one single term would be too easy 🙈. Piaget talks of schemes that develop through assimilation (new experiences fit in with preconceptions) and accommodation (when your assumptions must change). Vygotsky (apologies to him for no name drop above) of the “zone of proximal development”, the stuff just beyond your current understanding. Bruner has a closely related concept he calls educational scaffolding.
Show threadPatricia AasJun 17, 2024
@hallvors ooh the scaffolding thing I like. It’s more three dimensional than my (Norwegian influenced) mental image of wall-hooks.
Show threadThomas DepierreJun 17, 2024

@Patricia oh yeah.

Also cybernetics are not exactly about economics, but you can do a lot of economics with it :D

Show threadPatricia AasJun 17, 2024
@Di4na that is probably why it parses, I can think of it as a (computer) system.
Show threadThomas DepierreJun 17, 2024

@Patricia if you want to dive deeper into this stuff later, there is a whole field out there :D it is funnily enough mostly *not* applied in computers these days, except by Renegades like us.

But it ended up doing a come back through Human Factors and humanistic ways to look at Safety :)

Show threadPatricia AasJun 17, 2024
@Di4na do you have some books you’d recommend? (Bonus points for them being audiobooks because I don’t have a lot of actual reading time, it’s usually my “doing chores time”)
Show threadThomas DepierreJun 17, 2024

@Patricia AH

Uh no. Not really. I may be able to get you some podcasts, but I am not fan of them... The books are not wide enough distribution to be worth recording as audiobook.

There is a seminar recording from 2012 i would recommend, you do not need the audio, but it is far further along and only tangentially about cybernetics.

Even if it definitely take cybernetics stance in how it analyse things

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLb1aZTnPf3-OEU1by77zZQQYckvXUGmNY&si=2f3Tx-wCKMbMVszA

Depends if you want cybernetics themselves or other things linked

Bevor Sie zu YouTube weitergehen

Show threadThomas DepierreJun 17, 2024

@Patricia here is a fun exercise i recommend.

As a manager/leader. How would you know you did something wrong?

Will it be consistent, efficient and fast feedback or not?

If it is not, how can you remotely become good at it (bear expections)?

If so, leaders being bad at leadership should be seen as normal.

Show threadPatricia AasJun 17, 2024
@Di4na tbqh I don’t think I can become “good at it” regardless of feedback mechanism. In the same way I won’t ever be good at gymnastics. But I’ll try my best and hope I don’t do too much harm. A bit the same as my parenting philosophy tbh.
Show threadThomas DepierreJun 17, 2024
@Patricia right. That is already being good at it :D
Show threadValerie AuroraJun 18, 2024
@Patricia once you understand that most of the field of economics in the English-speaking world is about making rich and powerful people feel good about themselves, everything makes more sense. Thomas Piketty wrote about the weirdness of being an actual economist from France and working with American economists at Princeton. It's not you, it's the intentional structure of the field
Show threadPatricia AasJun 18, 2024
@vaurora do you have a link to that, that might also help
Show threadLuke KaniesJun 18, 2024

@vaurora @Patricia that, and economists are mostly rank frauds. They have a near-allergic reaction to testing any of their theories, or to even observing whether data exists to help them do so.

Kahneman and Tversky showed this in spades. They dared to ask, well, do people actually behave like economists say they do?

And of course the answer was, no, basically no one does, so nearly all economic theories are utter trash.

Show threadWernerJun 18, 2024

@Patricia
YES! This is how I learn. I always want to have things examplified and compared. Absteact thinking or to think of things in a vacuum dies not work for me.

Like maths. I need to put actual numbers into a formula and make sense of how it works. My teachers told me not to and wanted me to "understand" the formula without those steps.